Any STA ,BPA Adv Inst or Tandem Inst

[L.O. 0]

As an S&TA I have to say "no way". Even if the TI and WS flyer are the best in the world.

To get the OK from a first time tandem student is similar to asking a child if it would be ok to pick them up and through them across the room. The first timer has no clue as to what he is OKing. Fly-bys are not covered in the waver and are not recommended by our governing body (USPA). If the student even got scared he could sue for stress. I know that is ridicules but it's the world we live in.

Please correct me if my understanding of the law is incorrect. I would love to see it done. It just seems that one of the participants has no idea what they are getting in to. If something did happen, you might as well just go take the open sign down because you would be done.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[SkydiveMO 0]

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simply pointing that risk is everywhere, and risk "level" is extremely subjective.

Level of risk is subjective, I agree. But my point is that in this instance there is no need for the introduction of any risk just to “have fun”. The “fun” is just showing off and no matter how you spin it. Videographers also introduce risk but there are rules that should govern their behavior as they work with the tandem instructor. I’ve outlined this in a prior discussion.

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I have attached a graphic that displays the danger areas when flying camera with tandems as I was taught. It is safe to be in close proximity as long as you are on level with the tandem, keeping in mind that when the canopy deploys often the tandem pair will drop and move forward quickly as the drogue is released. As you move above or below the tandem pair you must also increase the lateral distance from the tandem. This prevents you from entering into an area where a premature deployment could put the videographer or tandem pair in the path of an opening canopy.

Many videographers are now flying on their backs to get some amazing shots from directly below the tandem pair. What they may not be considering is that they could have a premature deployment. I must admit that I recently started flying under the tandem to get a good shot of the drogue and student and hadn’t really considered a case where I might have a premature deployment. Take a second look at how you are flying around the tandem and reassess whether certain areas are safe. Some angles may give better effects for the student’s video but may also be putting everyone at unnecessary risk. For the tandem instructors it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of the student and making sure your videographer knows where it is safe to fly is part of that responsibility.

Video is a service for the student and has a benefit for the DZ. You are correct to say that a 10 way with a tandem is also a risk. You could try to spin it and say the tandem is doing a RW style dive and so why not add experienced jumpers for some added “fun”. Like it or not it’s still a student dive and adding additional jumpers, no matter how experienced, is just not needed. As for the buzz job by the Otter, hey it’s all fun and games till there is a canopy strike or some one gets their canopy spun up by the aircraft wake and goes in. Look, I’m no Saint that’s for sure. I’ve crawled around on the top of aircraft. I jumped with a stuffed toy that spun me up into a real nasty malfunction then it stuck around after the cutaway and I couldn’t clear it till the reserve deployment (BIG STUPID). I’ve jumped a crossbraced canopy at a 2.4 wingloading. I’ll probably think up some new stupid skydiver trick this season too. I only hope better judgment takes hold before I try it.

My stupidity involves me and no students. When I work as an instructor it’s the straight and narrow. The more that I’m around the sport the more conscious I become of the risks I take and how they will effect the people around me. I’d like to say everything I’ve done has only endangered me but it hasn’t. That’s the rub, we want to do all the coolest stuff in skydiving and are blinded to the risks or try to trivialize them. If we worried about the risks none of us would ever jump. What needs to happen is a culture where students are sacred and they are isolated from all the “fun” we like to have. It’s always tragic when a fellow skydiver is injured or dies in our sport but it’s very damaging to the sport as a whole when a student is injured or dies.

[The111 0]

Maybe your opinion would differ if you flew a wingsuit.

But by the same token...

Maybe my opinion would differ if I flew tandems.

I'll admit that's a responsibility I would not choose.

I don't want to re-hash the old "how close is too close" thread, but as I said before, this is all about proximity. Your guidelines for videographers reduce the risk level as much as possible (although they can screw up, of course). What guidelines would you give for the horizontal distance of a wingsuit in freefall to the side of your canopy? Surely 1 mile would not bother you (and it's going to happen every jump if the flockers who go out behind you pull at 2 grand). Surely 10 feet would bother you. Somewhere in between 10 feet and 1 mile, there is a distance where the student can see the wingsuit and smile, and the instructor can feel they are far enough away that no matter how royally they screw up, they still can't pose a significant risk. It's still obviously your choice to say "no" for your own student at any distance, but you have to admit there is a level it can be safely done, if TI and wingsuit pilot agree on the terms.

And while I don't deny being a showoff in general , I still disagree that showing off is the purpose of a pre-planned buzz. Back to the whole "Otter buzz"... is he doing it for glory, or is he giving the crowd what they want? The students really do like it, and REMEMBER it on the ground, trust me. )

FWIW, I do admire your professionalism and the value you place on your student's life... and I agree. When I do flyby tandem canopies, even if the TI says "bring it close", I stay much further than when I flyby a funjumper friend.

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