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PutaDC

Practically new gear from 1987

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Good day all. I have a friend who used to jump in the late 80s. She bought all new gear- rig, main, reserve and only jumped it 7 times! She's had it sitting in a spare room, unpacked, for the past 15 years(approx).
The container is a Vector-light pink and black. The main is a Raven 1, 170, F111, pink and black. the reserve is a Phantom 22 round, red. It tested positive for PH (remember those acid contaminations?!) but passed a tensile test on the mesh. (of course, that was in 88)
Everything is in great shape visually. There is a slight "old car smell" but we're not talking about those chili/fish taco smells at 10,000 ft.
She would like to know what she could get for this. I'm guessing only the container would be viable but maybe there are people looking for the other stuff.

Just to be clear, I am not selling this gear in this forum. I am looking to see if this is sellable gear.
"Walking near the edge makes you feel like a new man, and this new man wants to walk even closer to the edge!"

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Bad news. Pink, deffenantly unairworthy.

If it's a vector 1 then it's about three generations behind the times. It works, may need some upgrades like a new reserve PC. Forget the reserve. The main can't really be used as a reserve now. I'm guessing that it's a super raven but it's smaller then most might want if they were in that market, too small for base. So basically you don't have much of any thing. Their are people that might take the container off your hands but it's also smaller then what those kind of people generally look for. Can't fit a base or accuracy canopy. Maybe a crew dog but even for them their are newer options out their.

So you might find some one to give the container to but you probable wont get more then a case of beer for it. And that's optimistic.

A better question is what else does she have. Altimeter, Jumpsuit (it might pass for free fly), etc. No shit she probable has more value in that then the gear.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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The rest of the gear is just the backpack style carry bag, cotton suit, frap hat, ancient style Para alert?? and an Alti chest mount.
I told her the worst thing she did was sit on this thing for almost 30 years.
"Walking near the edge makes you feel like a new man, and this new man wants to walk even closer to the edge!"

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Sunk cost, that money was spent long long ago.

It would have been better placed in some investments, but can't rewind the clock.

People would be interested in the gear bag at least.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Best thing to do is to drop the container off to a local DZ - they might turn it into a training harness for AFF training on the ground. The reserve can be donated to a school or day care for the kids to play with. The main might sell for $100 for someone looking for a starter canopy.

The rest of the gear bag is where any money might be made.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I'll give her the awesome news and see if she wants me to drop it at the local DZ or one of the riggers who has a museum. Maybe use it as the go-to gear when a hijacker demands a parachute.
"Walking near the edge makes you feel like a new man, and this new man wants to walk even closer to the edge!"

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Hi DC,

You might consider donating to someone in Canada who does a lot of rigger training. As I understand it, a round rating is a distinct rating under CSPA.

Think either Rob Warner or Al MacDonald, as they both do a fair amount of rigger training.

If you need contact info for them, get back to me.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) The Raven 1 would also make a good rigger training canopy.

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RiggerLee

Bad news. Pink, deffenantly unairworthy.

If it's a vector 1 then it's about three generations behind the times. It works, may need some upgrades like a new reserve PC. Forget the reserve. The main can't really be used as a reserve now. I'm guessing that it's a super raven but it's smaller then most might want if they were in that market, too small for base. So basically you don't have much of any thing. Their are people that might take the container off your hands but it's also smaller then what those kind of people generally look for. Can't fit a base or accuracy canopy. Maybe a crew dog but even for them their are newer options out their.

So you might find some one to give the container to but you probable wont get more then a case of beer for it. And that's optimistic.

A better question is what else does she have. Altimeter, Jumpsuit (it might pass for free fly), etc. No shit she probable has more value in that then the gear.

Lee



While the technology of this rig is way behind the times that doesn't mean it won't sell or can't be jumped. The container and main are just fine. With so few jumps it should truly be in like-new condition. The reserve is another story. Not sure what the rules are these days about reserves "timing out" but if it's still legal I'm sure there's a rigger out there that would pack it.

The market for this rig is extremely limited - especially given that it's for a smaller person - but it is there. I personally know a guy who is still jumping a Swift System that he bought new in 1985 and it works just fine. So yes, there is a market for it.

Lets's not forget that there are still jumpers out there - especially old schoolers - who have no problem with round reserves and 7-cell F-111 mains. If it's airworthy as described and the price is right, someone will buy it.

Just don't expect to get much for it. Anyone willing to buy it will be wanting it for the price vs. mileage ratio.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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DougH

The reserve is worth a can of PBR on a windy day, let bored jumpers get dragged around.



Doug - what are the rules on reserve canopy age these days? I know several guys that would buy a round reserve in like-new condition with no jumps as long as it's legal.

Same with the main and container - especially at the right price.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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piisfish

This is a reserve that tested positive at the Ph test.



And then sat there for the next 27 years or so without getting a wash. Riggers might be eager to attack it with pull test clamps and see how it fares now!

And a Phantom 22 is even in the Low Speed category of C23b, not exactly the toughest of reserve categories, with National preferring a gross weight of 155 lbs max. So the pool of eligible users gets pretty small.

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pchapman

***This is a reserve that tested positive at the Ph test.



And then sat there for the next 27 years or so without getting a wash. Riggers might be eager to attack it with pull test clamps and see how it fares now!

And a Phantom 22 is even in the Low Speed category of C23b, not exactly the toughest of reserve categories, with National preferring a gross weight of 155 lbs max. So the pool of eligible users gets pretty small.

I admit that I didn't catch the acid mesh comment, but if it's legal (all required processes conducted) and passes pre-repack tests so be it. Not saying I would jump it but if everything is in order and it's legal I know people who would.

As dumb as that sounds to some let's not forget about the AAD, no-AAD conversation current raging in the incidents forum. ;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I think there is certainly a place for that reserve. This belongs in a rigger training bag of tricks. Having folks go through the PH testing and pull testing on an affected canopy would be great.


PutaDC

Good day all. I have a friend who used to jump in the late 80s. She bought all new gear- rig, main, reserve and only jumped it 7 times! She's had it sitting in a spare room, unpacked, for the past 15 years(approx).
The container is a Vector-light pink and black. The main is a Raven 1, 170, F111, pink and black. the reserve is a Phantom 22 round, red. It tested positive for PH (remember those acid contaminations?!) but passed a tensile test on the mesh. (of course, that was in 88)
Everything is in great shape visually. There is a slight "old car smell" but we're not talking about those chili/fish taco smells at 10,000 ft.
She would like to know what she could get for this. I'm guessing only the container would be viable but maybe there are people looking for the other stuff.

Just to be clear, I am not selling this gear in this forum. I am looking to see if this is sellable gear.

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National grounded all the Phantoms many years ago when they said "don't use any of our gear more than 15 ... or was it 20 ????? years old."
All Phantoms are more than 20 years old.
Several other manufacturers (Pioneer, GQ Security, etc.) assigned 20 year lives to their gear, which was a polite way of grounding gear sewn during the acid mesh era ... which ended in the late 1980s .... almost 30 years ago!
Back in the day (1990s), I re-certified hundreds of round canopies suspected of acid mesh. That era is behind us. I no longer repack canopies built during the acid mesh era.
Today, if you ask me to work on a canopy that old ... I will tell you to donate it to the museum in Langley.

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riggerrob

National grounded all the Phantoms many years ago when they said "don't use any of our gear more than 15 ... or was it 20 ????? years old."
All Phantoms are more than 20 years old.
Several other manufacturers (Pioneer, GQ Security, etc.) assigned 20 year lives to their gear, which was a polite way of grounding gear sewn during the acid mesh era ... which ended in the late 1980s .... almost 30 years ago!
Back in the day (1990s), I re-certified hundreds of round canopies suspected of acid mesh. That era is behind us. I no longer repack canopies built during the acid mesh era.
Today, if you ask me to work on a canopy that old ... I will tell you to donate it to the museum in Langley.



That was the answer I was looking for when I mentioned not knowing what the life limit was.

Not sure if I agree with your notion that manufacturers were trying to ground all canopies from the acid mesh era. I seem to recall the specific lot numbers of affected mesh were identified, effectively clearing all other canopies from suspicion. Am I remembering correctly on that?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Yes, your memory is correct.
Canopies made during the acid mesh era were grounded in two phases.
During the first phase (late 1980s): GQ Security, National, Pioneer, etc. published lists of serial numbers and dates of manufacture of round reserves suspected of containing acid mesh. Those suspect canopies were grounded. However since grounding all those round canopies would have grounded most skydiving and gliding clubs, the FAA granted "alternative means of compliance" to several parachute lofts. Suspect canopies were only grounded until inspected (bromocresol green and tensile-tested) and re-certified "acid free."
Only a handful of lofts got (written) FAA approval to re-certify parachutes "acid free."

Sales of round reserves plummeted during the late 1980s. Fortunately 3rd and 4th generation square reserves had been perfected by 1990. By 1994, major dealers like Square One refused to sell new round reserves to skydivers. Part of SQ1's logic was that the youngest generation of skydivers had not been taught how to land round reserves, ergo they had a much greater risk of injury under a round reserve.

The second phase was more subtle and occurred roughly 20 years after the first phase (after 2000). Two decades after the acid mesh era, several manufacturers stated "don't return to
service any of our parachutes more than 15 or 20 years old." They were trying to "close the door" on the acid mesh era.
Even if they were acid-free, 20 years of repeated tensile-testing has weakened the fabric.
On a practical note: most Southern California parachute lofts refuse to repack PEPs more than 20 or 25 years old, because 20 years of weekend flying wears them out in the California desert.

IOW there are only a few "closet queen" PEPs that are still airworthy after more than 25 years. "Closet queens" are problematic for young riggers, because old packing manuals, service bulletins, airworthiness directives, etc. are difficult to find on the internet.
There is also the problem of young riggers trying to teach pilots how to land round PEPs when those young riggers have never seen a round canopy in the air. Young riggers cannot teach pilots how to land round canopies because they never jumped round canopies, because round mains disappeared from CSPA and USPA schools circa 1990 ..... 25 years ago!

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It's an education problem. People are not being taught about these things. In part because some of these designs and issues are going away but there is also a movement towards a less complete education. I think it's part of the movement away from apprenticeship to short abbreviated class based education for rigger training.

Say a guy drags a pristine national pilot rig out of a closet? What would some of these young riggers make out of it? Let's say they ask here. They will get people telling them that according to the FAA they can technically pack the rig, expiration dates not being retroactive. But how many have heard of acid mesh, or laminated Kevlar, or tighter diapers.

I'm just saying that we are losing the depth in our education.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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chuckakers

***National grounded all the Phantoms many years ago when they said "don't use any of our gear more than 15 ... or was it 20 ????? years old.".



That was the answer I was looking for when I mentioned not knowing what the life limit was.


Whoah, hang on!

While I respect Rob's opinion and he may be right that some of that old stuff is old crappy stuff, I dispute that Phantoms over 20 years are grounded.

I have not found any manual for the Phantom series of skydiving reserves that says that. (They are rather scarce actually, the old manuals! If someone has a decent one, please share.)

There are in contrast newer manuals available from National only for the "NATIONAL 360 / NATIONAL 425 / NATIONAL 490 / NATIONAL FLAT". This is for their emergency rigs as a whole, not for the Phantom alone. (The only mention of Phantom 24 etc in the manual is a single mention of the name of the parachute packed in these rigs.)

We already know from prior rigging discussions that the manufacturer cannot impose a life on a parachute if it wasn't part of their original certification / manual. (Edit: with some uncertainty about whether adding it to the manual makes it apply to anything sold from that day onwards).

And even their emergency rig manual says
Quote

Until the PIA specifies or recommends otherwise, it is the opinion of the current management at National Parachute that the maximum service life is 20 years from date of manufacture



You can interpret that as a strict limitation or as "an opinion" for their emergency rigs. If Rob bugged me about that I'd probably admit most riggers would probably call their opinion of a maximum life to be the maximum life.

If you personally don't like 20+ year old Phantoms, ok.

As for GQ Security, they do have life limits on their newer certified emergency parachutes (10-15 years -- and they even ground their emergency rigs after a single emergency deployment!)

But I have statements from that UK company that they are a new company and have no responsibility or control over anything the old GQ Security made in the USA for skydivers years ago. I've also seen a manual from them about the GQ Security 350 Mk2 which applied a life to their newer ones but
not to the original 350.

In response to both my and another person's inquiries, when asked, GQ in the UK wrote (in the mid 2000s) that the US regs have a rigger recertify a canopy each time. However, they consider the life of a canopy to be 10-15 years, and would assume no liability for a canopy used for longer. (It is often something like 10 years but with a factory inspection extending it to 15.)

In other words, their new limitations don't technically apply to the old gear, even if they entirely distance themselves from the old stuff.

This stuff on GQ Security canopies was hashed out in threads here on dz.com in 2006, 2007, and 2008, my file on the GQ Security shows.

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I have phantom 24 packed and ready in one of my rigs. I don't hesitate to jump with it (as long as the winds are low). That being said, I now have 5 personal rigs and that is the last rig I would plan on jumping because I have gear that is so much nicer. They aren't grounded. Mine has been acid tested and cleared. The Kevlar band has been sewn on, everything is current and good on that canopy. I don't want to use it but I would rather do so than impact the ground at terminal.

To the OP: FYI, there is no raven I 170. Raven I canopies are 181 square feet.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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