fcajump 153 #51 June 2, 2015 Unstable I would struggle to believe they hold the skirt as reliably as a type 3 or 4. The tension required to unstow the rat's nest of lines in the bottom of the pack tray would be well in excess of the 2 or 3 loops required to open the diaper. On a side note, I have seen very few riggers do a 'neat' job of taking care of the excess line stow on the right group on the 304 seat parachutes. As well as a type 3 or 4... maybe not. But there should not be a rat's nest in the pack tray, and the rigger should ensure that the stows at the diaper are snug. Old bands here are useless. I've not seen too many come in sloppy, though (very unfortunately) I've seen one come in with all lines stowed in the diaper (from a long-time rigger who refused to use a manual or be questioned) and I've seen old/weak bands on the diaper. Thanks for the feedback. JW PS - for my preference in packing, I've always liked the type III... flat, easy and neat.Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dpreguy 14 #52 June 4, 2015 Still a "canopy first" type deployment that everyone has abandoned; except Strong. Keeping the 30's and 40's type design of a system makes Strong an outlier. If it is a good idea, design wise, then why don't sport designs use it? They don't because it is a bad idea to have your lines in your pack tray. (And I submit, even more of a bad idea for a seat pack.) Now that design has improved, it's time to change. Resistance to change because "we've always done it that way" is not a valid design philosophy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #53 June 4, 2015 dpreguyStill a "canopy first" type deployment that everyone has abandoned; except Strong. Actually ... that depends on your definition of "canopy first deployment"... either it is, in which case so are Type 3 and 4 which most other round canopy's still use, or only Type 1 is... Per the FAA Parachute Rigger's Handbook (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-17.pdf, p2-10), The type I is a "canopy first deployment", with the skirt unrestrained. This however is a Type 2. Type 2 being a two (or three) 1/2 stowe diaper. Which, as with the Types 3 & 4 restraines the skirt until all lines have been deployed (when packed properly). These are both line-first deployments (lines fully deployed prior to skirt opening). Now if you wish to reference NASA document "Parachute Deployment" https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/docs/05%20Parachute%20Deployment%20Wolf.pdf, they define "line first" as anything other than a parachute in a deployment bag or sleeve (Type 5 or 6) since the canopy is exposed to the air prior to all lines being deployed in all types 1-4. IF you are having the skirt unrestrained prior to all pack stowed lines being deployed with a Type 2*, then you're not packing it correctly. * the last tray stow should release at the same time as the last skirt stow. Now, do I think that type 2 is as good at ensuring the skirt is restrained until all lines are deployed as the type 3 & 4's... no. Do I think there is greater potential for riggers to do it wrong, yes. But, if the line stowes are properly done and the bands (especially the diaper) are at the correct tension, then that is what it is designed to do. Would I design it this way... no. Should SE, Inc. change their design... that is their call. Will you pack one with a type 2 diaper, that's your call. Personally, I will do a 3-stow type 2. I don't however do not like the 2 stow type 2, and I and very careful with stow tension and the results of table deployments. Just my $.02, always willing to listen to those with other views. JW PS - moderators - I think it would be beneficial to trim out the discussion of deployment methods from this thread into its own. This very useful discussion should be viewed under its own title and is having less and less to do with the original topic of one particular rig.Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #54 June 4, 2015 FCA: Nice look at definitions relating to deployment methods. I know type 1 and 2 systems as "lines in pack tray" systems (although of course parachutes lines are always somewhere in the pack). (Aside: Around '91 I saw a blown up round reserve with a type 2 diaper, when a line in an old rig caught the bent lip of a pack tray grommet, causing an out of sequence deployment. Jumper blew a couple panels and lines but was Ok.) fcajump Now if you wish to reference NASA document "Parachute Deployment" https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/docs/05%20Parachute%20Deployment%20Wolf.pdf, For anyone interested: As for getting more articles/presentations from that series on round parachute design & deployment from 2005, see: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/ippw03_short_course.cfm which is part of their archives on International Planetary Probe Workshops https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/ippw.cfm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #55 June 4, 2015 On a personal note... I've also used a main D-bag (from a Vector) to deploy a slider equipped round and it was the nicest/cleanest round deployment that I've experienced. I suspect that if Strong (or any other PEP mfg) were to invest* the time and expertise, their seat pack could be much improved using a type 5 deployment. *There in is the problem, isn't it... that would not likely be considered a 'minor' change... Much more expensive to recertify than to continue building what you're building... especially since the track record in the field is actually quite good for all of them despite our concerns over packing/deployment methods. JW PS - if SE, Inc is listening... I'd we willing to discuss working on that 'alternative' packing method development... Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #56 June 4, 2015 This is great info, a moderator should move it to its own thread, because we are never going to find it again with a search hiding under this thread title."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #57 June 4, 2015 Strong manuals have long allowed us to pack Lopos with Type 2 and Type 4 packing methods. Type 2 works best in Para-Cushion PEPs because the line bulk serves as a launching disc. Type 4 is standard when packing into sport reserves or containers made by most other manufacturers. Otherwise, Type 2 diapers are only an advantage on the thinnest of long-back PEPs. Most long-back PEPs pack more comfortably with Type 2 diapers, because you can spread line bulk out over a wider surface of the pack tray. When packing Strong Lopos into Butler or Softie seat packs, I always stow all the lines on the Type 4 diaper. Councilman and I have repeatedly asked Strong Ent. to give us permission to pack Para-Cushion Seats and Wedges with Type 4 diapers. ????????? Trivial point: this thread is the first time I have heard the term "Type 6 deployment." Previously, I have referred to all bags and sleeves as "Type 5." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #58 June 4, 2015 riggerrob Strong manuals have long allowed us to pack Lopos with Type 2 and Type 4 packing methods. Type 2 works best in Para-Cushion PEPs because the line bulk serves as a launching disc. Type 4 is standard when packing into sport reserves or containers made by most other manufacturers. Otherwise, Type 2 diapers are only an advantage on the thinnest of long-back PEPs. Most long-back PEPs pack more comfortably with Type 2 diapers, because you can spread line bulk out over a wider surface of the pack tray. When packing Strong Lopos into Butler or Softie seat packs, I always stow all the lines on the Type 4 diaper. Councilman and I have repeatedly asked Strong Ent. to give us permission to pack Para-Cushion Seats and Wedges with Type 4 diapers. ????????? Trivial point: this thread is the first time I have heard the term "Type 6 deployment." Previously, I have referred to all bags and sleeves as "Type 5." Agreed on all points. I don't use the type 2 method in any container other than SE's. (did a 2-stow diaper in a Softie because it didn't have the full stow option, but hated it in many ways and got the owner to change rigs shortly thereafter). Type 6... hadn't seen that before looking up my facts for this discussion... That's one thing I like about these discussions... keeps me on my toes and teaches me things, even about stuff I thought I already knew. A TAKEAWAY for observers of this talk: if any rigger is packing a diaper'ed round, with most of the lines in the container and is not using only 1/2 the lines to close the diaper, STOP!! A type 2 MUST ONLY be closed with 1/2 the lines. Contact a DPRE, the manufacturer (Strong) or older rigger who is familiar with them. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #59 June 4, 2015 Best to donate it to USPA museum and take a tax credit,,best betsmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #60 June 5, 2015 Quote This is great info, a moderator should move it to its own thread, because we are never going to find it again with a search hiding under this thread title. Totally agree. I'm learning a ton here... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #61 June 6, 2015 betzilla Quote This is great info, a moderator should move it to its own thread, because we are never going to find it again with a search hiding under this thread title. Totally agree. I'm learning a ton here... Umm... Ya mean something like THIS? I'm no moderator, but I know how to write a good thread title and how to make a clicky. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
