last repack on expired cypres2 end of life?

[ajs339 0]

If a cypres2 expires 7/2015 will a rigger repack the reserve in june? July? August? What is the latest month?
I'm shopping used rigs. thanks.
the Dom is 7/2003 ie end of life is 7/2015?

[riggerrob 558]

Riggers are responsible for enduring that gear is airworthy (batteries, service bulletins, factory inspections, etc.) when it leaves their loft. If gear will time-out before the next scheduled I&R, many write that on the reserve packing data card: "Cypres retires July 2015." .... plus or minus the few months allowed by the Cypres factory .... blah .... blah ..... blah .....
Most riggers also write that on the invoice/bill and verbally tell the customer.
The rigger covered his ass legally and with a piece of paper.
If the customer jumps the Cypres after July that is his problem.

[ajs339 0]

Thanks for quick reply. Does the same apply if Dom is 7/2003 and 7/2015 is end of life?

[Pobrause 6]

ajs339

Thanks for quick reply. Does the same apply if Dom is 7/2003 and 7/2015 is end of life?

have you actually read his answer?!

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

the Dom is 7/2003 ie end of life is 7/2015?

If the DOm is 7/2003, the unit expires on 01/31/2016. Cypres2's have a 12.5-year life span.

I just make a note on the card that the AAD expires on such and such date.

Derek V

[ajs339 0]

Of course.
I edited my question to say it was end of life and he edited his answer to say "retired" I believe. Still at work so haven't started drinking yet!

[councilman24 36]

Your question was unclear to start. We don't know if you were including the +/- 6 months in your "end of life". IF DOM is 7/2003 it is no longer supposed to be in the air according to the manufacturer's instructions after 1/31/2016.

I personally will not pack a rig with a cypres that will expire before the end of the 180 days (U.S.) unless they are an established customer of mine. While a note on the card, telling the person, etc. is all good I'm not convinced a rigger won't be held accountable for an expired cypres in a non expired rig. Either under FAA regs ( your inspector may vary) or in a civil court (everything is up for grabs there).

Each rigger can read the regs and do what they wish and I don't have any grief over that but it's the inspector that investigates the fatality that will decide the issue. I know as above many riggers will pack a rig as long as the cypres is good to go at the date of the pack job.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[piisfish 135]

councilman24

Your question was unclear to start... IF DOM is 7/2013 it is no longer supposed to be in the air according to the manufacturer's instructions after 1/31/2016.

you got me confused there

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[councilman24 36]

piisfish

***Your question was unclear to start... IF DOM is 7/2013 it is no longer supposed to be in the air according to the manufacturer's instructions after 1/31/2016.

you got me confused there

Sorry you can't translate a typo.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[nigel99 143]

Not sure about the USA. But simply put I 'can' do a repack for you the day before a component expires, BUT the pack is only valid until component expiry. So it becomes a financial choice for you. If you want to pay a reserve pack for x days of jumping your choice.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[riggerrob 558]

Similarly, some riggers "adjust" the inspection date so that the repack "expires" the same day the Cypres "retires."

If the customer chooses to jump it after that, he is assuming additional risk and absolving the rigger. He is absolving the rigger because he is ignoring the rigger's professional opinion and he/she is ignoring the Cypres manufacturers' maintenance schedule, which means that he is also violating the civil air regulations because most country's civil air regulations loop back to " in accordance with the manufacturers' instructions."

[nigel99 143]

riggerrob

Similarly, some riggers "adjust" the inspection date so that the repack "expires" the same day the Cypres "retires."

If the customer chooses to jump it after that, he is assuming additional risk and absolving the rigger. He is absolving the rigger because he is ignoring the rigger's professional opinion and he/she is ignoring the Cypres manufacturers' maintenance schedule, which means that he is also violating the civil air regulations because most country's civil air regulations loop back to " in accordance with the manufacturers' instructions."

Agreed. If I did a pack like this the next due date would be the date of component expiry. As it was explained to me during my course, we are allowed a MAXIMUM of 6 months nothing preventing a shorter period.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Divalent 89]

Hmm, I'm trying to figure out the logic of this refusal to do a "normal" pack job when the AAD will expire within 6-months.

Some riggers here are essentially saying "Even though it has not expired, just throw it in the trash bin, as I won't let you use it for the remainder of it's life".

And some are essentially saying: "I won't take responsibility for the reserve pack job beyond the point where the AAD is no longer functional, and so will force you to have your reserve repacked at that time."

What exactly is bad about having an AAD that expires (so no longer will work?) in a rig? How does that affect the ability of the reserve to function? I mean, I have an AAD but there is no requirement that I actually turn it on for a jump. If I don't turn it on, is there any danger that my reserve won't work as well? Isn't an expired AAD just like having an unexpired AAD that isn't turned on?

Honestly, it seems like some of you riggers are just using some technicality to be unreasonable hard asses. (And couldn't you at least offer to unthread the cutter from the loop without doing a full repack?)

But I'm no rigger. So maybe you guys can explain how risky it is for the jumper to be jumping a rig with a non-functional AAD (as opposed to a rig without an AAD).

[chuckakers 370]

riggerrob

Similarly, some riggers "adjust" the inspection date so that the repack "expires" the same day the Cypres "retires."

So those riggers are falsify the packing card (official document) by knowingly putting a packing date on it that is other than the actual date the reserve was packed? Pretty sure that's blatant violation.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Hooknswoop 19]

FAA FAR 105.43;

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

Quote

Honestly, it seems like some of you riggers are just using some technicality to be unreasonable hard asses.

It's an FAR, not a technicality.

Quote

(And couldn't you at least offer to unthread the cutter from the loop without doing a full repack?)

I don't do that, I do offer to open (a reserve I packed), remove the AAD, and re-close it.

FAA FAR Part 65 and 105 are very short, not much to them. As a skydiver, you should be well versed on the FAR's that cover skydiving.

Derek V

[fcajump 153]

Divalent

Hmm, I'm trying to figure out the logic of this refusal to do a "normal" pack job when the AAD will expire within 6-months.

Some riggers here are essentially saying "Even though it has not expired, just throw it in the trash bin, as I won't let you use it for the remainder of it's life".

And some are essentially saying: "I won't take responsibility for the reserve pack job beyond the point where the AAD is no longer functional, and so will force you to have your reserve repacked at that time."

What exactly is bad about having an AAD that expires (so no longer will work?) in a rig? How does that affect the ability of the reserve to function? I mean, I have an AAD but there is no requirement that I actually turn it on for a jump. If I don't turn it on, is there any danger that my reserve won't work as well? Isn't an expired AAD just like having an unexpired AAD that isn't turned on?

Honestly, it seems like some of you riggers are just using some technicality to be unreasonable hard asses. (And couldn't you at least offer to unthread the cutter from the loop without doing a full repack?)

But I'm no rigger. So maybe you guys can explain how risky it is for the jumper to be jumping a rig with a non-functional AAD (as opposed to a rig without an AAD).

Airtek solved this problem, and we collectively have reinvented it.
_MY_ take on this argument...
First - the cypres expires at 12 years. But that raises the issue of a rig being 'in-date' with an expired AAD. So, the manufacturer has graciously permitted it to continue to be used for another 6mo so you don't have to pull it out until the next repack. But if you then want to argue with me that it should be in a rig being repacked after 12yr... tough... If its under 12yr, then of course I will, because that's what the grace period is for. After the 12yr mark... you got your money's worth and you knew the dates when you bought it.

Will I work with a regular whose AAD is at 12yr and a bit?? A regular that I know will pull the rig from service while a replacement AAD is on order? Maybe, but that's not my standard policy.

As to the question of "safer with and AAD that's out of date than without one at all"... well, if the plane is going down I'd rather have an emergency rig that's just out of date than not have one... but the FAA knows that if there is not a hard cut-off date/rule, many people will go years between repacks. At some point you have to say no more.

As to the AAD being in the rig and disabled... nope. FAA is clear on that as well.

No offense guys, but your convenience and getting the last few days of a grace period on your AAD is not worth the liability, fines and loss of my rigging license.

Just my $.02.
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[dgw 8]

Hooknswoop

FAA FAR 105.43;

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

Quote

Honestly, it seems like some of you riggers are just using some technicality to be unreasonable hard asses.

It's an FAR, not a technicality.

***(And couldn't you at least offer to unthread the cutter from the loop without doing a full repack?)

I don't do that, I do offer to open (a reserve I packed), remove the AAD, and re-close it.

FAA FAR Part 65 and 105 are very short, not much to them. As a skydiver, you should be well versed on the FAR's that cover skydiving.

Derek V
Having an expired Cypres in a rig, which has been maintained, and not turning it on, is in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. They instruct you not to use it after 12.5 years. I don't think (I haven't checked) that they instruct an owner to remove it from a rig after 12.5 years, just to not use it?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Having an expired Cypres in a rig, which has been maintained, and not turning it on, is in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. They instruct you not to use it after 12.5 years. I don't think (I haven't checked) that they instruct an owner to remove it from a rig after 12.5 years, just to not use it?

You would have to ask the FAA for a legal opinion. But the way I read; "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." Is that if the AAD is installed in a rig, it must be maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. Airtec's instructions say that for the Cypres2, it has a life span of 12.5 years and after that cannot be used.

The FAR doesn't say; "if it is installed and turned on". It says, "If installed"

To me, if an AAD is over-due for maintenance it is not maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions and cannot be legally jumped, even if it is turned off. By the same token, if an AAD has met or exceeded the manufacturer's life span then it is no longer maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions and cannot be legally jumped, even if it is turned off. There is no exception to jump with an AAD not maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions if it is turned off.

Derek V

[chuckakers 370]

fcajump

Will I work with a regular whose AAD is at 12yr and a bit?? A regular that I know will pull the rig from service while a replacement AAD is on order?

I haven't read how the 6 month stretch is worded but my common sense would tell me that it's spelled out that the AAD is legal if packed BEFORE the 12 year limit and then times out after it's packed, and NOT legal if packed AFTER the expiration date.

I doubt the manufacturer would word the 6 month stretch clause as legal for use if packed after the 12 year expiration. My guess is if you pack one at 12 years and 1 day for a "regular" you have not performed a legal pack job. Keep in mind that the 6 month stretch only applies to units that reach the 12 year limit during a legal pack cycle, not before it's packed.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi chuck,

Quote

My guess is if you pack one at 12 years and 1 day for a "regular" you have not performed a legal pack job.

As long as everyone is splitting hairs here, let me do the same.

The repack cycle is 180 days, not 6 months ( I wish it was 6 mos as that is far easier to keep track of ). CYPRES says ( I believe ) 12.5 years which = 12 yrs 6 mos. The could be a few days difference.

Jerry Baumchen

[chuckakers 370]

JerryBaumchen

Hi chuck,

Quote

My guess is if you pack one at 12 years and 1 day for a "regular" you have not performed a legal pack job.

As long as everyone is splitting hairs here, let me do the same.

The repack cycle is 180 days, not 6 months ( I wish it was 6 mos as that is far easier to keep track of ). CYPRES says ( I believe ) 12.5 years which = 12 yrs 6 mos. The could be a few days difference.

Jerry Baumchen

That doesn't split any hairs. My point is that regardless of how much stretch beyond the 12 year life limit the manufacturer allows the unit to stay in the rig and regardless of the repack cycle, it is my contention that once the unit is 12 years old it can no longer be legally packed into a reserve.

BTW, 180 days is always less then 6 months, so the repack would always come due before the 6 month AAD extension expires, even if it was packed on the day before it timed out.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mark 102]

chuckakers

. . . the 12 year life limit. . .

According to the manual, the warranty period (i.e. the life limit) is 12.5 years.

Mark

[chuckakers 370]

mark

***. . . the 12 year life limit. . .

According to the manual, the warranty period (i.e. the life limit) is 12.5 years.

Mark

The life limit is 12.5 years - at a maximum. Covering the unit under warranty for 12.5 years doesn't mean it can be legally packed up to the 12.5 year point.

However, I made a quick check of the Cypres manual and didn't see anything specific about packing a unit beyond the 12 year mark. It may well be that the legality of packing one past the 12 year mark is not specified by SSK.

Anyone have info on this?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[pchapman 261]

So would one suggest that a vacuum packed Simula aircrew parachute, with a repack cycle of 5 years, which can be equipped with an AAD, can never be packed if a Cypres is installed? After all, the Cypres would always time out its maximum 4.5 year maintenance cycle within the 5 year repack cycle.

Ok, I don't know much about those military-use parachutes, or what rules apply to them, so I probably have details wrong. But it would still serve as a thought experiment to show how silly the idea is, that one can't pack anything, unless every component is good for the full length of the reserve repack cycle.

If the same issue came up in Europe, some Europeans with a 1 year cycle might lose 11+ months of AAD lifetime if they got it packed the wrong day. Pack it one day earlier, you get a rig good for a year. A day later, supposedly the rig couldn't be packed at all in that configuration because something times-out in 364 days. Even if you have a rig good for that last year of AAD life, if you have a mal or get the rig wet and need a repack, suddenly you're shit out of luck?

Admittedly, just because an idea is ridiculously stupid, doesn't mean it can't be the way the FAA does things.

I thought it was understood from prior debates on this subject that a rigger doesn't have to guarantee the rig for the whole duration of the pack cycle, in particular where the FAA reigns.

But I'm just talking and don't have any proof at hand....

(As for the other topic of liability if someone jumps the rig after the AAD is expired, well that's personal choice. After I pack a rig I don't have any control over whether the jumper pulls low or lends it to a fat friend who overloads the reserve or fires it at too high a speed or forgets to turn the AAD on or stores it next to outgassing lead-acid batteries or whatever.)

EDIT:
As has been pointed out in prior discussions, one understanding of the situation is that the FAA rules are that one of the requirements for a rig to be legal for use is for it to have been packed in the prior 180 days. That doesn't mean that if you pack it, it has to be legal for 180 days.

The FAA also mentions a list of people who are responsible for a 'parachute operation' -- which includes a jumper and not just a rigger. So the jumper is on the hook for misuse of an approved parachute.

There was a PIA thread on the topic in 2006, which didn't come to any clear conclusion about what the FAA really wants but the basic issues were discussed:
http://riggers.pia.com/post/expired-cypres-and-120-repack-cycle-1322971

And an old DZ.com thread, which at the time was also concerned with Cypres 1 batteries being out of date:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2383787;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

As for liability, another example from those old threads was the issue of how Cypres 1 batteries were only approved for 500 jumps over their 2 year life. Did one just stop rigging for active jumpers, because you couldn't prove that they wouldn't violate the AAD manufacturer's rules, and thus the FAA's rules, during the next repack interval?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

6 month stretch

What 6 month stretch? Where in the manual or the FAR's does it say anything about a 6-month stretch?

The FAA says that if installed, it must be maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. If a rig has a 12 year, 3 month old Cypres2 that has met all Airtec's maintenance requirements and the reserve was packed within the last 180-days, it is legal to jump.

If the Cypres2 is older than 12.5 years or the reserve was packed more than 180-days ago, it is not legal to jump.

If I put a Cypres2 that has 30-days left in it's lifespan into a rig, then that rig is legal to jump for the next 30-days because it meets al the requirements of the FAR's. i.e. reserve packed within 180-days and AAD maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions.

Derek V