Audible dependence.

[phoenixlpr 0]

DSE

Quote

I do not see this as a hazard as there are 3 other people with an audible that can trigger the breakoff in a 4 way. Very unlikely that all of the audibles will fail

Somewhere on YouTube is a video of a two way, both of them lose alti awareness and both of them have audibles. Both of them have AAD fires.
Both survive, but do you really, truly want to trust others with your life? What, for examle, if everyone decides they're having a great time and ignore a deck, and someone has an AAD fire, putting them into you or someone else on the group?

Use the eyes that evolution gave you. Maybe train yourself to see that alti on your wrist, even in FS formation jumping? You can always use a forearm mount to make it easier to see.

Either way, depending on an audible is short-sighted. They fail from time to time.

Same logic: depending on your AAD is stupid, because they can fail time 2 time...

[Deimian 43]

DSE

Somewhere on YouTube is a video of a two way, both of them lose alti awareness and both of them have audibles. Both of them have AAD fires.

I guess you are talking about this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_4Z1M_iG8o. I don't think the helmet of the guy that appears in the larger part of the video has any audible pocket. I don't know about the other one, but to me it looks like none of them had audibles.

[fcajump 153]

DHemer

I will admit to being pretty much reliant on an audible when doing FS jumping. Some times the internal clock might prompt me to glance at my wrist but most of the time I am focused on the skydive and track when I hear a beeping in my ear

I do not see this as a hazard as there are 3 other people with an audible that can trigger the breakoff in a 4 way. Very unlikely that all of the audibles will fail

When doing other jumps though I do use my visual alti. Tracking and jumping with less experienced jumpers in particular.
I personally think my audible was one of the best gear purchases I have made

Wish we could get folks back to wearing (also) a chest mount when doing RW (OK... FS for you young folk). Its NOT for YOU... its for ME when I'm facing you. Just like mine is for you to double check without having to break your stride to see your wrist (or own chest).

As to relying on the actions of others for my own altitude awareness... the South Pole comes to mind.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Blis 1]

DSE

Quote

I do not see this as a hazard as there are 3 other people with an audible that can trigger the breakoff in a 4 way. Very unlikely that all of the audibles will fail

Somewhere on YouTube is a video of a two way, both of them lose alti awareness and both of them have audibles. Both of them have AAD fires.
Both survive, but do you really, truly want to trust others with your life? What, for examle, if everyone decides they're having a great time and ignore a deck, and someone has an AAD fire, putting them into you or someone else on the group?

Use the eyes that evolution gave you. Maybe train yourself to see that alti on your wrist, even in FS formation jumping? You can always use a forearm mount to make it easier to see.

Either way, depending on an audible is short-sighted. They fail from time to time.

And that is why I wear 2 audibles.

[pchapman 261]

DSE

Both survive, but do you really, truly want to trust others with your life?

I think that's skydiving... But seriously, it can be hard to tell as an experienced jumper to what degree one is relying on an audible. So even if one is saying one is relying on the audible, one may well be at times keeping track out of the corner of one's eye how the altitude is doing. Well, one hopes...

And the more people one is with, the less likely everyone will go low -- Being in an 8 way starts to be like having 8 audibles in one's helmet.

(The complacency issue I find that affects me is that breakoffs are are often so high that one starts to not care as much about altitude, because there's extra already built in. Not like when one broke at 3.5 -- there when everyone went low, you were LOW. When one adds in doing video for tandems, or doing AFF / PFF, one gets used to having so much extra altitude. Just something to watch out for, whatever one's reliance on the audible. )

[DSE 3]

Deimian

***
Somewhere on YouTube is a video of a two way, both of them lose alti awareness and both of them have audibles. Both of them have AAD fires.

I guess you are talking about this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_4Z1M_iG8o. I don't think the helmet of the guy that appears in the larger part of the video has any audible pocket. I don't know about the other one, but to me it looks like none of them had audibles.

Nope, not the right video (and I'm too lazy to spend my time overseas searching just now). However, both jumpers in the video I refer to are wearing Dytters. I know both jumpers; we've talked about how it all happened.

It's easy in the heat of the moment to lose awareness. True, more audibles in more people mean more likely awareness, but again...do you really want to be trusting YOUR safety to others? Truly, don't you want to be self-reliant?

[chuckakers 370]

DSE

***Maybe train yourself to see that alti on your wrist, even in FS formation jumping?

Before the popularity of wrist mounts, FS jumpers mounted visuals on chest straps. Those were easy for others to see while turning points. Leg strap mounts were also popular for the same reason.

We used to say that during FS our altimeters weren't for us, they were for our fellow jumpers and theirs were for ourselves. Some teams even mounted them upside down for easier reading by teammates.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[rmarshall234 13]

I wonder how many of these "my audible failed" situations are actually instances where it worked but the jumper didn't hear it. We can call it task saturation or sensory overload, but in times of high stress your brain will start to prioritize what it thinks is the most relevant information. That less recognized and somewhat annoying beep in your ear can get filtered out. In a sport such as skydiving where altitude awareness is paramount, it seems foolish - and somewhat dangerous - to relegate that task to your hearing. And especially as others have pointed out - to your friends. Consider also, that an audible device is inherently less reliable than a visual altimeter because of its increased complexity. (including batteries and such) If I look at my altimeter and it has failed (because it stuck or the needle fell off) I will recognize that immediately and move to a backup source. Not so with an audible.

[CygnusX-1 42]

DSE

but again...do you really want to be trusting YOUR safety to others?

This is a fallacy. Every time you jump with someone you are trusting your safety to others. If you didn't trust your safety to others, maybe you should be jumping alone. Don't believe me?

On a jump I could end up going low on the formation and deploy right below you (while you are filming the formation). You may or may not see me deploy. Your safety is in danger.

You could be part of the formation or filming it and I'm a late diver. I'm late and trying to make up time and come in at 180 MPH and plow right into your back (from behind). Your safety is in danger.

I could be learning to swoop and am setting up for that awesome 540 degree turn. I don't see you in the landing pattern below me and - you can guess the rest. Your safety is in danger.

Moral of the story. DSE - you better trust me with your safety if you want to jump with me.

[JWest 0]

rmarshall234

Consider also, that an audible device is inherently less reliable than a visual altimeter because of its increased complexity. (including batteries and such).

All your posts I've seen on this site so far have been good, but I cannot let this misinformation go unchallenged. My Viso 2 and Quattro, are made from the same manufacture, probably have the same altitude detection programming. The only difference is the output, which is simple coding Yes this could start the whole mechanical vs. digital debate but lets not.

[wmw999 2,121]

Quote

mechanical vs. digital debate

Well, that is the debate when it comes to complexity
If your visual altimeter dies, it either freezes at one altitude, goes apeshit, or goes blank. If your audible dies, you keep waiting for it until you figure out it's died, while going 100+ mph towards the ground.

Looking at the ground and/or feeling the time are OK, but overrated. You can get that niggling "it's time" feeling, but if you're having a ton of fun, or really focused on docking/the funnel/whatever, well, that feeling doesn't seem to hold up

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rmarshall234 13]

Yep, should have made that clear. There is nothing like an _analog visual altimeter_ for simplicity.

[riggerrob 558]

Exactly!
For something as important as altitude awareness, you should have three or more altimeters: visual, audible and the mark one eyeball. I depend upon my peripheral vision first, my sense of timing second, dials third and beepers fourth. Some days I use clouds as altimeters.
For example, one day I was riding to altitude with a freefall student. I pointed at clouds outside the window and asked "How high are those clouds?"
"4,000 feet he replied."
Right! What should you be doing at this height on the way down?"
He replied "Grabbing my steering toggles ..."
"Right again!" I grinned back ...

As your wife found out, hearing is the first sense to suffer when we get scared. Then we get tunnel vision, etc.
I can smell cow poo in freefall, but am not sure how many of my students can?????

[DSE 3]

CygnusX-1

*** but again...do you really want to be trusting YOUR safety to others?

This is a fallacy. Every time you jump with someone you are trusting your safety to others. If you didn't trust your safety to others, maybe you should be jumping alone. Don't believe me?

On a jump I could end up going low on the formation and deploy right below you (while you are filming the formation). You may or may not see me deploy. Your safety is in danger.

You could be part of the formation or filming it and I'm a late diver. I'm late and trying to make up time and come in at 180 MPH and plow right into your back (from behind). Your safety is in danger.

I could be learning to swoop and am setting up for that awesome 540 degree turn. I don't see you in the landing pattern below me and - you can guess the rest. Your safety is in danger.

Moral of the story. DSE - you better trust me with your safety if you want to jump with me.

Fair enough, taken out of context of the thread, you're entirely right (remember, I'm the guy now deaf in one ear due to an organizer putting a newbie into a complex formation, compounded by said newbie being stoned at the time).

More properly stated in context of the thread, "Do you really want to trust your jump buddy to tell you when the fun is done and it's time to break off and deploy?" Wouldn't you rather be self-aware and self-reliant? Audibles are a great backup, but primary awareness comes from eyeballs and perhaps a visual alti.

[dthames 0]

chuckakers

***...in my brain relying on an audible is exactly the same as relying an a wrist mounted alti...

It is the same. Don't rely on any mechanical device. Rely on your eyes and your mental clock.

I have been aware of this topic since I was a student and have kept it in mind as I have progressed in the sport. I got my A license at a C-182 DZ exiting from 9,500 AGL, belly jumped some at turbo DZs, and then moved to wingsuits. I don’t think I ever had a good internal clock for a skydive, but I do have a fair feel for the progression of time. Most of my skydives have been wingsuit jumps. I got an audible early with the instructions to “don’t depend on it”.

In formation wingsuit flying we do use the audible for breakoff cues because looking away from your base can put you out of position. Our “freefall” time varies all over the place depending on the type of jump and the type of suit a person is flying. 90 seconds to 3 minutes is a typical range for me. My audible’s battery got low a couple of months ago and I noticed I was not hearing all of my alarms. I didn’t fix it right away because I wanted to observe my behavior with it not working 100%. I still seemed to have a pretty good feeling for “this is about over” and would reference my chest mount to see where we were.

For the disciplines where we can easily see the ground, we must learn more than we are aware of, regarding how the ground looks at a given altitude.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”