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JWest

Audible dependence.

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Talking to some of the old timers about audibles and a recurring theme appeared. Many of them said not to rely on it for altitude. Now in my brain relying on an audible is exactly the same as relying an a wrist mounted alti. Is this just people being suck in their ways or are audibles less reliable than visual altis?

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I would have thought they are just as reliable, the only difference is if your audible ISN'T working, you may not notice until you are too low, as you may be too focused on your jump.

With a visual, a casual glance during the dive will give an indication if it has gone faulty.

During my 4- way jumps I usually have 6 altis. 2 audibles which beep to tell me to track off, 1 visual that I don't think I ever look at until I'm ready to deploy, and 3 team mates that track off at the same pre-set height, so if both my audibles aren't working, I've got three other people to give the break off indication...
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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pms07

The only reliable reference is the ground, assuming you can see it. I think most would tell you not to rely on either a wrist mount our audible alti.




damn straight.

relying on anything except for cold hard proven things (like the ground :) is silly.

I believe someone shared a story of someone who post cutaway was in freefall with a "I'll just have the AAD fire and deploy my reerve" mentality, and that scares me.

How about the people who think that it's ok to put themselves in a situation where they may be forced to cutaway super low because their beloved MARD will work 100% of the time ?

Rely on your brain (if it's a good one). And go bowling if your brain is not good enough to skydive with :(

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I take my audible out periodically for awhile, just so that I don't get to depending on it.

Yeah, your eyes are always the backup. Use them regularly (that's the problem with people who end up low a lot of the time -- they're so focused on the jump they forget to look down).

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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any instrument can fail... I generally use my audibles for freefall. It's rare I even look at my visual until deployment or swoop setup. About the only other time is if something funnels oddly and messes with my mental freefall clock. Looking around and seeing everyone leaving is good hint the ground is approaching too.
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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With a visual, a casual glance during the dive will give an indication if it has gone faulty.



Plus, I feel like the very act of checking the altimeter sort of forces a mental break from the heavy concentration on the jump mechanics. Just that act of conscious checking also forces you to engage mentally in the world around you. By moving your eyes and/or head towards the alti, you might also notice the visual cues of a planet that's getting bigger. :D

I didn't start using an audible till I had about 200 jumps. Glad I waited because that helped me to develop the internal clock that can also be a powerful reference point. By the time my breakoff alarm goes off I'm usually already thinking "We should be close to breakoff by now."
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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A visual alti can let you know your height all the way through the skydive. That equals total height awareness. You can anticipate break-off height because you are aware at all times where you are.

An audible only goes off when you tell it to. This means break-off awareness, or deployment height or whatever. But it is not real height awareness.

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Comments from another old timer....

Your *primary means of altitude awareness should be *visual. Looking at your altimeter and the ground. One reinforcing the other.

Your *secondary means should be audible. And third and hopefully never, mechanical (an AAD).

I'm sure there are people much smarter than me that can explain the physiology of it, but I suspect in times of high stress your hearing will shut down (fail) before your sense of sight does. I know when my wife was learning to skydive it took her about 50 jumps before she could even *hear the audible in freefall.

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I personally bought an audible with the same mentality I have with my AAD. I hope I never need it, but I want every chance I can get to help save my life.

My only purpose of buying an audible was so the thing would be screaming in my ear if I burn through 3000ft (thats what my lowest alarm setting is at). I don't use it to tell me my altitude. As a plus it also logs my jumps.

I am sure there are other things audibles are useful for, but for me I only trust my eyes and my visual altimeter in tandem with each other. Just my 2 cents as a newbie, hopefully it makes sense.

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I am curious of the physiology of it as well. Question for the guy above. Why is your lowest alarm set so hight? I would think in a time of stress fighting with a mal it would be better to have an alarm screaming to chop at a lower altitude.

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My main purpose for the audible is for if I lost altitude awareness during freefall. I always pull at 3500ft. So if it starts screaming at 3k then I've already gone lower than I want to. I do get what you are saying though, just wasn't my purpose for buying it. My main point was that while I have an audible, I don't use it as a traditional altimeter.

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Of course it's always good to have visual reference points such as the ground or your altimeter, but the reality is quite different. Most people i see jumping have two audibles (like myself) and rely 100% on them. Since bigger group jumps especially in freefly with planned formations are always a very complex thing, the second or two it might take you to check your altimeter actually also mean a big risk factor as you are no longer aware of your surroundings (plus depending on the position you're flying it might actually be counterproductive). Losing awareness in a big group at high speed means that you can build up some fairly high relative speeds which can cause injury. I am convinced that if 4,5,6 or even more people jump together, everybody wearing 2 audibles, it's safe enough to rely on them. You'll notice when everybody tracks away if the unthinkable happens and both of your audibles fail ;-) i know many people will not like this, but this is the reality

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I jumped for decades using NO AAD and relying only an altimaster AND my internal clock.... That and an awareness of " Where we were" based on "what we were accomplishing "... For example,,,, IF we Finally GOT that 4 way...... we MUST be getting down there...;)

Added the AAD upon realizing that "nobody is infallible " and then added a basic pro track...when I got into camera flying..When climbing to altitude I ALWAYS stay tuned into the single beep at One Grand... ( another good reason to be WEARING my helmet for take-off ) IF for some reason, failure to turn it on, or bad batteries,,, I Do NOT hear that beep.... I will register that fact... and remind myself NOT to count on the device for that skydive.
It's also good to note that "old style " analog altimeters should Still be used... as it's possible and easy, to check ANY such device, within view, during a jump... Either on our own rig ... or else, one worn on a friends gear...
:)

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degeneration

... and 3 team mates that track off at the same pre-set height, so if both my audibles aren't working, I've got three other people to give the break off indication...



Until they are all doing the same thing and you all end up with simultaneous AAD fires. Cause THAT'S never happened...

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Old timer here.
Some people are too dependant on audibles.
It pisses me off to no end when at 2 or 3 grand above breakoff someone just turns and tracks away. After landing you ask WTF? The usual answer "I had my audible set higher for the last jump and forgot to change it." Again WTF?
On LO jumps I set my audible 3-5 hundred feet above breakoff so when I hear it I know breakoff is seconds away. That gives me a chance to scan the formation and point out anyone that is low or out so the tracking can be adjusted.

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raftman

Old timer here.
Some people are too dependant on audibles.
It pisses me off to no end when at 2 or 3 grand above breakoff someone just turns and tracks away. After landing you ask WTF? The usual answer "I had my audible set higher for the last jump and forgot to change it." Again WTF?



Exactly what I do when the skydive sucks.

Break off at 7000 grand. Sorry guys,,,, my dytter was set for tandems........
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

***Old timer here.
Some people are too dependant on audibles.
It pisses me off to no end when at 2 or 3 grand above breakoff someone just turns and tracks away. After landing you ask WTF? The usual answer "I had my audible set higher for the last jump and forgot to change it." Again WTF?



Exactly what I do when the skydive sucks.

Break off at 7000 grand. Sorry guys,,,, my dytter was set for tandems........

So do you track up/down jump run? Deploy high or just wait till your group deploys?

Bailing on a jump at 7k seems silly to me, turning and burning from a group at 7k seems downright crazy.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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Couple of my buddies knows that I do this regularly.

So they turned it into atmo jump once. They intentionally made skydive shitty so I'll track away really high, and they all tracked with me. :D

One of the most random, funnest dive ever.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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WOW. That's scary!
Sorry to hear you've had to leave so many sucky skydives early.
At least you get to practice your mad tracking skillz that way.
Look me up when you come to town, I'll be sure to avoid the loads you're on.
Maybe you should stick to tandems.............

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I saw the over dependence in play the first time I saw a two-out (cypres fire simultaneous with main deployment)... during debrief he indicated that he was in the habit of tracking at breakoff until his dytter sounded so that he could look for traffic without having to check his visual alt. Except that day it didn't work...

Finally he glanced down and threw out because it looked too close (at ~1k') :o

For me, I've simply set mine to:
1 - 6k' (tandem deploy or getting toward break-off)
2 - 3k' (usually sport deploy, my Tandem EP hard deck)
2 - 1500' (sport EP hard deck... might move this up a little this year)

Just like with the altitudes on my visual, the meanings vary based on the dive type and plan/situation. But they are ALWAYS set to the same thing. Each tone means only one thing... you are passing this altitude.

They are a reminder, but never to be the primary source of information.

Early on it was impressed upon me that it's not too hard to verify whether or not your visual alt is working. But the only way you know if the audio is working during that jump is if/when it goes off... using it as your primary source and waiting for it is to gamble your life that it will work THIS time.

Just some old foggy ramblings,
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I will admit to being pretty much reliant on an audible when doing FS jumping. Some times the internal clock might prompt me to glance at my wrist but most of the time I am focused on the skydive and track when I hear a beeping in my ear

I do not see this as a hazard as there are 3 other people with an audible that can trigger the breakoff in a 4 way. Very unlikely that all of the audibles will fail

When doing other jumps though I do use my visual alti. Tracking and jumping with less experienced jumpers in particular.
I personally think my audible was one of the best gear purchases I have made

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I do not see this as a hazard as there are 3 other people with an audible that can trigger the breakoff in a 4 way. Very unlikely that all of the audibles will fail



Somewhere on YouTube is a video of a two way, both of them lose alti awareness and both of them have audibles. Both of them have AAD fires.
Both survive, but do you really, truly want to trust others with your life? What, for examle, if everyone decides they're having a great time and ignore a deck, and someone has an AAD fire, putting them into you or someone else on the group?

Use the eyes that evolution gave you. Maybe train yourself to see that alti on your wrist, even in FS formation jumping? You can always use a forearm mount to make it easier to see.

Either way, depending on an audible is short-sighted. They fail from time to time.

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