First Rig, What options are best...

[AlanS 1]

I'm now at the point of wanting to get a rig, but would like to know what options to consider.

The things that are decided are:

A container that can hold a 190-170 main, and a 190ish reserve. I want to free-fly, since I'm already doing sit fly in the tunnel.


So here are my questions about options.

#1) Collapsible pilot chute. yes/no. What's the point of it?

#2) Quick opening reserve. Any slow openers to avoid?

#3) Silver handle vs. Freefly soft handle for reserve. Does having a silver handle make a difference is some emergency cases?

[yoink 321]

AlanS

So here are my questions about options.

#1) Collapsible pilot chute. yes/no. What's the point of it?

Pros:
Lets your canopy fly better. An inflated PC had a tonne of drag and that basically acts as a sky-anchor for your wing.
I think it's also been said that it reduces the wear-and-tear on the top skin of your canopy.

Cons:
You have to remember to cock it every time you pack. It's not a big deal until you forget...

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#2) Quick opening reserve. Any slow openers to avoid?

Not really. Stick to a main brand and there shouldn't be much of a difference.

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#3) Silver handle vs. Freefly soft handle for reserve. Does having a silver handle make a difference is some emergency cases?

This one is more of a personal taste thing.
Personally, I think you've trained on a handle and your brain has already started associating the metal feel with 'reserve out'. Changing it to a soft handle at this point resets that mental training. It may not be a big deal, or it may be a huge one...
I also think that soft handles have more of a tendency to tuck under the webbing than metal handles, but have no data to back that up.

Proponents of soft handles will cite the increased risk of snagging on a metal handle vs a pud, particularly in complex VRW formations and at exit. I think that can be mitigated by being careful on your exits and not jumping with people who get grabby...

A mini-D handle may be the best choice.

[Anachronist 2]

Yep yoink is pretty much right. You'll find people who like soft reserve handles over metal ones and vise versa, just personal preference, I like soft btw.

Arguably the "best" reserve on the market is the PD Optimum, I've had one cutaway with it and one with an Aerodyne Smart, the Optimum flared much better. Low bulk reserve (like the Optimum) also means you can get more reserve in the same container.

Reserve opening is less an issue of canopy type than container type. I think a strong argument could be made for getting a rig with some form of advanced extraction, e.g. Vector Skyhook, they have some drawbacks but the benefits outweigh them. I can think of a few fatalities that could have been avoided first and foremost - if the jumper had initiated emergency procedures in time, and second- a skyhook may have saved them even though they waited too long.

As for the PC, ultimately it doesn't matter a whole lot on 190 size canopies and you might not even notice a difference depending on your skill/sensitivity. The only issue with a collapsable PC is that if you don't cock it, it will have a hard time extracting the canopy (it at all). If you are still not a confident packer, maybe a non-collapsable PC will give you more peace of mind, but collapsible is the standard for fun jumper sport rigs.

(Forgot to mention) With the reserve handle and PC, It isn't a big deal to switch if you decide you want the other type. They are both "interchangeable components." PC is very easy to swap (5 minutes + repacking the main), switching reserve handles requires having the reserve repacked.

[mcordell 2]

Anachronist

switching reserve handles requires having the reserve repacked.

Not necessarily. If done by the same rigger that packed it then the container just needs to be re-closed. I wouldn't switch a handle for someone without a full inspection and re-pack on someone else's pack job though.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[sammielu 3]

Look at rigs at your dz for examples of the different types of pilot chutes and handles. Most jumpers will let you try their rig on (on the ground) to feel the different handles and see what it means to have handles tuck behind webbing.

Talk to a dealer for the rig you are considering. They can talk through options and measure you for proper fit (very important!!)

You don't mention if you're shopping for new or used, so consider buying a used rig and sending it to the manufacturer to have the harness resized to fit you (about $450 - still cheaper and faster than a brand new rig).

Also - befriend a local rigger who can help with this stuff. Unsolicited food & drinks during busy days and thank you beers (or redbull or cigars or whatever they're into) casually dropped of with a 'Thank You' goes a long way. And, get as much info as you can on your own from manufacturer websites, articles, etc, so you have basic info and are asking specific questions of your experts, not asking for an hour of free advice from someone with 10 or 15 or 20+ years of experience with people with the same questions. These conversations easily happen during weather or slow days at the dz, and are a pain when there are skydives and $ to make.

[jonstark 8]

Firt question I'd ask is... Are you gonna jump it a hundred times or a thousand?

Jon

[piisfish 135]

mcordell

***switching reserve handles requires having the reserve repacked.

Not necessarily. If done by the same rigger that packed it then the container just needs to be re-closed. I wouldn't switch a handle for someone without a full inspection and re-pack on someone else's pack job though.handle can be switched without opening

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[councilman24 36]

Whatever options are on the used rig that you find.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 93]

1) Go with the collapsible PC, no real controversy there. Even a 190 main will benefit enough to warrant going that way.

2) If you do a search you'll find that some think the optimum opens a bit slower than others.

3) There are many threads about soft vs metal handles, so there is no need I think to starting a new discussion without checking those out first. There are alternative metal handles that I think are worth considering:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4656277#4656277

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[AlanS 1]

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Firt question I'd ask is... Are you gonna jump it a hundred times or a thousand?

I currently weigh 190 lbs and am following the chart I see for wing loading based on the number of jumps I have, and trying to avoid the temptation to down-size too quickly.

My plan is to use this rig to holds a 190 and 170 main for that process, then get another rig that holds something around 150 (high) and 130 (low) range.

When the time comes based on that chart, to get a 150 canopy this rig will become my 2nd rig.

I would likely to be part of big way jumps in the future, so when I do my first few jumps at a new DZ I might pull out the rig with the larger canopy, until I feel comfortable jumping there, or if in a big way select the canopy size that puts me in the middle range of the wing-loading for all the rigs on that jump. (I'd want to move at the same speed as the traffic, not be too fast or slow for people in a landing pattern.)


So, the short answer might be several hundred jumps.

[AlanS 1]

yoink

***
#1) Collapsible pilot chute. yes/no. What's the point of it?

Cons:
You have to remember to cock it every time you pack. It's not a big deal until you forget...


Until you forget, or... The first 50 canopies you rent/pack yourself don't have a collapsible PC, then one day you rent/borrow a rig that does and a collapsible pilot chute, and you pack it just like you packed the previous 50.

This almost happened to me. I've been packing a chute the doesn't have a collapsible pilot chute. Then on the last jump of the day a smaller chute that I haven't jumped yet became available. Only thing was to make the load with my group I had to pack it quick. So, I start packing it quickly just like I had the other canopies with-out a collapsible PC. ....

Lucky for me the person that normally rents that rig, walked by and stopped me a said. "Hey, that chute has a collapsible PC. Let's take care of that right now."

Conclusion #1: It is good to have friends looking out for each other.
Conclusion #2: Living in a world full of collapsible PCs, it is better to be in the habit of packing them than to be in the habit of NOT packing them.

So, as a result, I think I get one that has a collapsible PC and get in the habit of packing a chute with a collapsible PC every time right now, early in my jumping career.

yoink

Quote

#3) Silver handle vs. Freefly soft handle for reserve. Does having a silver handle make a difference is some emergency cases?

This one is more of a personal taste thing.
...
I also think that soft handles have more of a tendency to tuck under the webbing than metal handles, but have no data to back that up.

Proponents of soft handles will cite the increased risk of snagging on a metal handle vs a pud, particularly in complex VRW formations and at exit. I think that can be mitigated by being careful on your exits and not jumping with people who get grabby...

A mini-D handle may be the best choice.

I like the idea of the mini-D handle. My concern with the pud, is if you break your hand in free-fall and cannot grip it, you cannot pull it. With a D-handle, even if you can only get a thumb or the remaining stump of your arm, you still have a chance of pulling the D handle.

Perhaps that isn't likely enough chance to chose one over the other though.

[AlanS 1]

sammielu

You don't mention if you're shopping for new or used, so consider buying a used rig and sending it to the manufacturer to have the harness resized to fit you (about $450 - still cheaper and faster than a brand new rig).

The original plan was used, but I've not had much luck getting one, so am now looking at new.

[potatoman 0]

You are talking about a rig/reserve, not a main.

You can sometimes get a full package deal, much cheaper. (Specially when the company makes both main/reserve/harness)

You get to choose your colours!!!

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[skytribe 16]

In the us, changing a reserve handle can only be done by the rigger who packed the reserve last if it is still in date. The reason is they are the only ones who are able to reseal that pack job without a complete inspect and repack. This applies to Aad install and removals which also require a seal to be broken.

I believe this is detailed in the FAA ac105-2e document.

[yoink 321]

AlanS

Then on the last jump of the day a smaller chute that I haven't jumped yet became available.

New equipment - Alarm bell #1...

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Only thing was to make the load with my group I had to pack it quick.

Rushing to make a load, on unfamiliar equipment - Alarm bell #2...




Conlcusion #3 - rushing to make a load is rarely a good idea. It's so easy to make silly mistakes from just forgetting stuff like taking your altimeter to doing up your harness properly (done both of these), to messing up a pack job.
I've seen lots of people make similar mistakes for exactly that reason...


You've enough experience to know that anything new in skydiving introduces complications, and that you need to take the time to think them through.
The PC is just one example - had you thought through the change in flight characteristics of the new canopy, for example? Probably not, because you were rushing to make a load...

There will always be another jump. Potentially making this one your last because you were rushed always seemed like a bad gamble to me.

[Glitch 0]

You've asked 3 questions about options... what about some others? ie: (and there are others)
- 7cell or 9 cell. What do you want to do and get out of your canopy? Interested in CRW? Demo's? swooping? keeping and maintaining your originally issued landing gear?
- leg pads. Padded ones cool. Extra padding is nice.
- B12 snaps. Were you a gymnast in a past life? I wasn't, and I'll prolly never have another rig w/out em.
- hard riser inserts. These may come in handy if you opt for a soft loop reserve rip cord.
- The container. Do you like Ford, Chevy, or imports? What's popular where you normally jump? Why?

I don't have any answers for you, just some additional questions you might want to answer for yourself before laying out a ton of cash and wishing 'if only I'd of thought of that before I ordered....'.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

uote:
#2) Quick opening reserve. Any slow openers to avoid?
Not really. Stick to a main brand and there shouldn't be much of a difference.

Watch these two videos and then tell me that there is not much of a difference.

OPT Reserve
http://www.deepseed.com/d-spot/blog/liam/inside-no-pull-cypres-save-0

Scroll down to the second video and watch when his feet rotates which means the canopy is out of the bag.


Now Watch this one and see how fast the opening is.

PDR Reserve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uclwbEnr6o4

There is plenty of other footage on YouTube of the same stuff.


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[wasatchrider 0]

Glitch

You've asked 3 questions about options... what about some others? ie: (and there are others)
- 7cell or 9 cell. What do you want to do and get out of your canopy? Interested in CRW? Demo's? swooping? keeping and maintaining your originally issued landing gear?
- leg pads. Padded ones cool. Extra padding is nice.
- B12 snaps. Were you a gymnast in a past life? I wasn't, and I'll prolly never have another rig w/out em.
- hard riser inserts. These may come in handy if you opt for a soft loop reserve rip cord.
- The container. Do you like Ford, Chevy, or imports? What's popular where you normally jump? Why?

I don't have any answers for you, just some additional questions you might want to answer for yourself before laying out a ton of cash and wishing 'if only I'd of thought of that before I ordered....'.

are you saying its hard to put on a rig with out b12 buckles?

BASE 1519

[sundevil777 93]

wasatchrider

***You've asked 3 questions about options... what about some others? ie: (and there are others)
- 7cell or 9 cell. What do you want to do and get out of your canopy? Interested in CRW? Demo's? swooping? keeping and maintaining your originally issued landing gear?
- leg pads. Padded ones cool. Extra padding is nice.
- B12 snaps. Were you a gymnast in a past life? I wasn't, and I'll prolly never have another rig w/out em.
- hard riser inserts. These may come in handy if you opt for a soft loop reserve rip cord.
- The container. Do you like Ford, Chevy, or imports? What's popular where you normally jump? Why?

I don't have any answers for you, just some additional questions you might want to answer for yourself before laying out a ton of cash and wishing 'if only I'd of thought of that before I ordered....'.

are you saying its hard to put on a rig with out b12 buckles?

I've seen so many people NOT hang the rig down to their elbows when putting legs through. Either stepping into it on the ground or having the rig all the way up on their shoulders when getting legs through - either of those ways looks so awful compared to just hanging it down to the elbows, I don't understand it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hellis 0]

AlanS

******
#1) Collapsible pilot chute. yes/no. What's the point of it?

Cons:
You have to remember to cock it every time you pack. It's not a big deal until you forget...


Until you forget, or... The first 50 canopies you rent/pack yourself don't have a collapsible PC, then one day you rent/borrow a rig that does and a collapsible pilot chute, and you pack it just like you packed the previous 50.

This almost happened to me. I've been packing a chute the doesn't have a collapsible pilot chute. Then on the last jump of the day a smaller chute that I haven't jumped yet became available. Only thing was to make the load with my group I had to pack it quick. So, I start packing it quickly just like I had the other canopies with-out a collapsible PC. ....

Lucky for me the person that normally rents that rig, walked by and stopped me a said. "Hey, that chute has a collapsible PC. Let's take care of that right now."

Conclusion #1: It is good to have friends looking out for each other.
Conclusion #2: Living in a world full of collapsible PCs, it is better to be in the habit of packing them than to be in the habit of NOT packing them.

So, as a result, I think I get one that has a collapsible PC and get in the habit of packing a chute with a collapsible PC every time right now, early in my jumping career.


When I teach new jumpers how to pack the PC I always show them the "Brians method", this method is impossible with a collapsed PC.
So hopefully it will trigger an alarm in their heads when/if they try to do it.

[Deimian 43]

It also gives you more chances to clear a horse shoe mal, and way less chances to have the bridle knotting shut the PC. I don't know why people doesn't use it more often.

[Glitch 0]

Quote

are you saying its hard to put on a rig with out b12 buckles?

I'm not saying it's hard... by my old fat ass finds its much easier with the B12 snaps. I've had them on every rig I've ever owned, and just can't see me changing in this lifetime.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[AlanS 1]

Deimian

It also gives you more chances to clear a horse shoe mal, and way less chances to have the bridle knotting shut the PC. I don't know why people doesn't use it more often.

But 'it' I assume you mean "Brian's method" of packing the PC.

[Deimian 43]

AlanS

***It also gives you more chances to clear a horse shoe mal, and way less chances to have the bridle knotting shut the PC. I don't know why people doesn't use it more often.

But 'it' I assume you mean "Brian's method" of packing the PC.

You assume right

[masterrigger1 2]

I should have posted this one earlier also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8zFf6SfOYw

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com