New AAD made in USA

[RiggerLee 61]

Actually they use a lot less information then that. They don't even have that data. I'll use vigil as an example. Not because they are any less sophisticated then cypress but simply because they are open and honest about how their unit works. It's based solely on the absolute pressure measured by the sincer. From that they infer altitude. Their is a 250 error depending on orientation. Their is no effort to correct for that. The firing altitude is set at 1100 ft based on that pressure measurement not on altitude. Therefor it will fire at around 850 ft when you are on your belly for example.

It gets more complicated. They do not have any way to since decent rate. The try to differentiate it from the altitude "data" which as we noted has significant error in it. Differentiating by it's very nature increases noise in a signal. This is just one iteration and they have a pretty high sample rate. They can do some smoothing so it's not that bad. The issue is not one of noise but the "error" from the burble. It can cause what are basically discontinuities in the altitude graph. They do not try to correct these. Their is no good way to do so with out making assumptions that could lead to significant error in the "perceived" altitude. So when you differentiate these discontinuities you basically get huge spikes in the decent rate curve. This can lead to activation errors in their firing logic. The way it's written it sides to the "conservative", to not firing rather then activating at the wrong time.

If you could some how get a hold of a copy of their lecture they are very open about it. If it get's 5 data points in a row that say it's over speed then at the first point at which it sees that it is below firing altitude/pressure then it will fire. Five samples works out to about half a second of their low speed/washed data. If however it experiences one of those spikes in the decent rate graph caused by the discontinuity in the pressure curve from the burble the error in the decent rate can cause the counter to reset and delay firing till it build up five more consecutive points. What are we talking about? Say if you roll over or are tumbling. In theory if you you were tumbling or rolling at a rate of two hertz it would continue to interrupt the cycle and never fire. That's a pretty good tumble and would be a very edge scenario. But every time it resets it delays the opening by another 88 ft. That's not trivial and is a very plausible scenario. They showed real data of this happening. It would generally catch it on the next cycle and all was well. The lecture was about how with a high speed vigil and it's higher activation speed you are much more prone to this. It is much easier for the unit to miss more then one cycle and dangerously delay the firing.

They are building this high speed unit because they have to. Their are handful of people out their that actually need it. But what they are seeing is that many people including relatively young jumpers are ordering these units just because they are new and cool, or they think that they might one day want to get into canopy piloting. Basically the lecture was about the trade offs in safety that they have had to make in order to keep the high speed unit from firing under canopy in a high speed swoop. But it's actually a very good explanation of the inner workings of the unit.

By the way. I'm a vigil fan. They are great guys to work with. The unit is very evolved. They are just being open and honest about how it functions and it's limitations. This might make it sound inferior in some way to cypress. It's not. Cypress has simply chosen to keep the curtain closed and not let you under stand the inner working of their unit at all. If that makes you feel better, to be blissfully ignorant of the workings of the equipment on you back and to not know the limitations of your own gear, then that's fine. Many people feel that way. They prefer airtec to just pat their hand and tell them that every thing will be fine, like a small child. I'm joking, or at least half joking. Many people do feel better and prefer it that way.

The point is that although they may be using slightly different logic. They are working from the same raw data. And that data does not include altitude or decent rate. Those are only inferred from the pressure sencer.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[RiggerLee 61]

Temperature data? Really? How exactly can you get meaningful air temp data? Their are temperature sensors but taking such a reading and having it mean any thing are very separate issues. Temperature is notoriously one of the hardest things to measure in a meaningful way. We're talking about a sensor that is berried deep within the thermal mass of a rig. A rig that sets in trunks and in the sun. It has no significant air flow to it. I can't see a temp sensor giving you much of any thing.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[peek 20]

RiggerLee

Temperature data? Really? How exactly can you get meaningful air temp data?

I meant only temperature data that can be used to help temperature compensate the pressure sensor, not "outside air temperature" like with a vehicle.

[RiggerLee 61]

Ahh, are you saying to correct a temp error existing in the pressure sensor it self?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[mxk 1]

RiggerLee

If you could some how get a hold of a copy of their lecture they are very open about it.

Do you by any chance have the contact information of the person who did this presentation? I would like to ask them if they would send me some raw sensor data to play with.

I wrote an AAD simulation in MATLAB that allows me to generate fake sensor data and then pass it through any imaginable algorithm to see what the theoretical best performance of a pressure-based AAD could be. Unfortunately, without having actual data or even knowing the exact performance characteristics of the sensor, it's hard to generate a realistic noisy signal. For example, I have no idea what a flip looks like to the sensor. If I could get my hands on some real, unprocessed, and preferably annotated data, we could have a bit of fun with the algorithms.

[peek 20]

RiggerLee

Ahh, are you saying to correct a temp error existing in the pressure sensor it self?

Yes, but not necessarily an "error". Many (most?) sensors have outputs that change over temperature. Some have built-in temperature compensation but sometimes external temperature compensation is used too.

[RiggerLee 61]

It wasn't Vladi Pesa giving the lecture, he did the one on their military unit. It was another guy. I think his name was Willie Boeykins but the class schedule was kind of a cluster fuck this year. Give Vladi a call. He's a great guy. Very helpful. Or just find a vigil. and some one with one of their down load devices. There is an IR receiver that will let you down load the low speed, filtered for noise, data from the unit. Or give him a call I'll bet he would be happy to send you some files. The ones they were showing in the lecture were a good example of what a tumbling cutaway looks like. I think I have a number for them...

386 801 6295

You may have to get them to transfer you to the technical department but I'm sure some one their will be happy to help you. Good group of guys.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[df8m1 19]

Nigel

Quote

Just a hint, no 15 year battery life claims... This unit will be doing a lot of work which requires power... .

If true its just a matter of time till someone jumps a unit without power when they need it. Not sure I'd call that progress or better design. A bit like 'the operation was successful but the patient died of complications'

I'm sure the M2 will indicate a low battery condition during start up if it don't make it to the advertised 15 year mark.

[df8m1 19]

danielcroft

I own a vigil 2 and have just ordered a c-mode cypres. I like the idea of being able to switch between modes myself based on the type of skydive I'm doing. If the basic operation of my AAD is not to fire unless I'm going to die then, clearly, modes aren't necessary. All of the modes in AADs are to work around problems with the basic operation of the AAD so, they're not necessary if the AAD truly knows what's going on which I get is the point of your new AAD but I think you'll need to clear a VERY high bar to prove that to people.

I agree with the bar being high, especially given that people are use to having modes for each discipline. From strictly a marketing stand point, I think having modes will be necessary as the required re-education to get away from them would be prohibitive.

__________

The recent posts above regarding how the current AADs work are excellent. I think there is a group of people who would be very uncomfortable jumping their AADs if they truly knew how they worked lol.. I am honestly very impressed with what Airtec, AAD, and Mars are able to do with so little information.

AAD and Airtec can talk about how their unit works because they have patented the process. I have been advised that patenting code is not piratical and that it is better to protect is as a Trade Secret. Code evolves so quickly that by the time a patent is issued, the code no longer resembles what was patented lol.. As such I have to keep the Secret Recipe under wraps.

I have been scolded so to speak for saying what I have lol... The proof will be in the pudding as they say. We plan on doing some side by side comparison tests this summer to see how the Current AADs do compared to mine. The Vigil will probably be the main unit to compare to as it will put out some data that we can put side by side with ours.

[danielcroft 2]

df8m1

I agree with the bar being high, especially given that people are use to having modes for each discipline. From strictly a marketing stand point, I think having modes will be necessary as the required re-education to get away from them would be prohibitive.

I'd argue that, any person who'd be willing to jump your AAD (at first), would be willing to go without modes as they'd need to buy into the concept you're going for in order to justify buying it over one of the existing units.

I think it'll be difficult to demonstrate the ability of your AAD to do a better job than the competitors in a way that will convince the masses unless you're planning on having it masquerade as a "standard" AAD at first which, I think, would remove the main benefit.

I'd suggest videoing every single test jump you do...

[piisfish 135]

do you plan to have a wingsuit mode on it ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[df8m1 19]

piisfish

do you plan to have a wingsuit mode on it ?

This AAD does not "need" modes like current AADs do, for it to preform properly when used in the various diciplins, except for Tandem because there is no way to discern a Tandem jump from the video jumper filming the Tandem.

This AAD would use modes to determine its failure mode operational procedures. This AAD is able to make decisions beyond that of a traditional AAD because of the data recorder providing additional information beyond barometric pressure. In the event that one of the instruments were to fail during a jump, the AAD's emergency procedures would be determined by the mode that it is set in.

I do not want to get into this too much because this is getting into IP territory, but we would use discipline specific modes to allow the AAD the ability to deal with a problem in a manner that minimizes the risk to the jumper.

Once the AAD has identified that there is a problem, the interface screen will say ERROR!! DO NOT JUMP!!. Once the user shuts down the AAD, it will detect the error during start up and shut down.

So just like Modes address limitations with current AADs during normal operation, our AAD's modes would address the limitations that are a result of a problem identified during a jump.

Or to put it another way, we jumpers have emergency procedures to deal with different malfunctions, and this AAD will have it's own emergency procedures which will be dependent on the mode it is in.

I can see that being confusing, so if that does not make any sense let me know and I will try to take another stab at it.

[piisfish 135]

so, any news about this AAD ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[roostnureye 2]

im kind of wondering how you will be able to market an aad without modes?

I fly my large wingsuit in the mid 20s fall rate, after I deploy, my canopy speed is probably very close to the same speed as freefall. 120 canopy loaded at 1.6.

How is this aad going to know im under canopy. I can fool my altitrack all day long into thinking I deployed, as flares in large wingsuits can turn negative numbers in fall rate. just seems like a tall task for a wingsuiter aad. but, I just saw an ad from airtec about a "new" wingsuit cypress today. I really wish this would come to the market, as I just lost a good friend yesterday to a wingsuit collision.

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[RiggerLee 61]

He has a three access accelerometer in his AAD's. It allows him to distinguish opening shock from simply reaching zero or a negative fall rate. It also allows him to distinguish between a cutaway and the dive of a supper fast canopy.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[df8m1 19]

roostnureye

im kind of wondering how you will be able to market an aad without modes?

I fly my large wingsuit in the mid 20s fall rate, after I deploy, my canopy speed is probably very close to the same speed as freefall. 120 canopy loaded at 1.6.

How is this aad going to know im under canopy. I can fool my altitrack all day long into thinking I deployed, as flares in large wingsuits can turn negative numbers in fall rate. just seems like a tall task for a wingsuiter aad. but, I just saw an ad from airtec about a "new" wingsuit cypress today. I really wish this would come to the market, as I just lost a good friend yesterday to a wingsuit collision.

Hi everyone,

Sorry for being away for so long. We have been focused on a Static Line AAD with a min exit altitude of 525ft AGL, amongst other requirements. We just completed a contract and will be getting to the free fall AAD this summer. AAD housings are in the process of being made as I type.

To address the Modes question; Yes it will have modes, if for no other reason than marketing, but there are some advantages with using discipline specific modes, just not in the general way most people think.

For an AAD to be worth anything for a Wingsuiter, it must be able to tell the difference between suit flight, unstable suit flight, and canopy flight. The easiest way to address the descent rate problem when switching from suit flight to canopy flight is to have the AAD turn off once a good canopy is detected, which should happen several thousand feet above the ground. The problem with turning off once under the main canopy is there is still a lot of opportunity to get into trouble where an AAD “might” be beneficial. I have no idea what Airtec is doing to handle the descent rate difference, but I have seen many wing suiters swoop the pond, so going from a wingsuiter to a swooper in the same jump is just something that any new AAD must be able to do…Oh and not have the firing descent rate so high that it is useless under a ball of carp.

Situational Awareness is the foundation to our approach. Our algorithms can tell if a jumper is flying a wingsuit, is under canopy (even swooping), or is not constructively participating in their stability during free fall. The use of modes can help us optimize performance for a specific discipline, while allowing proper functionality should the conditions that the jumper is in stray from the primary “mode” discipline, such as swoop the pond at end of the day.

We are very excited by how well and adaptable our technology has performed in testing, and we are looking forward to contacting the jumpers that have volunteered to help with discipline specific testing.

[danielcroft 2]

df8m1

[snip]
under a ball of carp.
[snip]

[df8m1 19]

danielcroft

***[snip]
under a ball of carp.
[snip]

Good Catch!...Get it? lol

I must have subconsciously not wanted to say a bad word on this here internet lol.. this is a family forum you know

At least I know that someone is following this lol...

[sfc18e 0]

I'm putting together an order for a new harness and container now. Any idea on availability yet?

Thanks,
Bruce G.
Conway, SC

[df8m1 19]

sfc18e

I'm putting together an order for a new harness and container now. Any idea on availability yet?

Thanks,
Bruce G.
Conway, SC

My target goal is to be in Beta by this fall / winter. I have had some custom component samples made that need to be tested before I will order quantities needed for a production run, and to get the best price on some of these parts, the lead time is quite long, which dictates some of the timing.

Many of the algorithms we will be using for the Sport AAD, are being used for the military AAD, so the bulk of the logic has been in testing for some time which puts us a little ahead of the game. Once I have a couple of prototypes built, things will start to progress faster. I am just trying to be conservative with my timing estimates.

The bottom line is, the AAD will determine when it is ready; quality dictates the release date, as apposed to the release date dictating the quality.

We would like to be taking orders at PIA for summer of 2017 and based on where we are now, I do not foresee any reason why we can not meat that target at the quality level we require.

I welcome questions that anyone may have.

[degeneration 5]

df8m1

I welcome questions that anyone may have.

I'm sure this is one that you probably can't answer yet, but do you have an idea of what price point it'll be coming in at? And the life of the unit?

Apologies if these are things already asked somewhere in this thread.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[danielcroft 2]

There are plenty of people following, maybe they're not as sensitive to carp-related typos...

[mjosparky 3]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Lee,

Quote

The Lap rig guy builds a nice one pin container. He has a whole line of rigs and I don't know if they are one pins or not.

They are all 1-pin rigs.

Jerry Baumchen

You are now going by alias "The Lap Rig Guy"? Works for me.

This a link to the manual.

http://www.ssk.us/EAC_userguide_C2.pdf

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[df8m1 19]

degeneration

***

I welcome questions that anyone may have.

I'm sure this is one that you probably can't answer yet, but do you have an idea of what price point it'll be coming in at? And the life of the unit?

Apologies if these are things already asked somewhere in this thread.

As of now, the target price is projected to be in the $1200 USD range, but that is subject to change given where we are now as you mentioned.

At the very least it will be close to if not a touch higher than a Cypres, but given the advanced technology and capability, the value proposition is much better even at a higher price point.

We also will be employing a different maintenance process that will increase user confidence while minimizing the inconvenience of having to go without an AAD while it is in for service. There is no since in sending in a unit that is working just fine.

As far as lifespan of this unit… The only component that has somewhat of a hard live span is the cutter cartridge, and the manufacturer sets that. The issue is not that an older cartridge will not fire; it is that they can only speck the firing reaction time within a window of time, as the older it gets, the slower the reaction time is. Keep in mind we are talking milliseconds here, but a speck is a speck.

The AAD is a modular design, meaning that if we found that after 15 or 20 years, an instrument’s drift was beyond the correction capability, we could basically swap out one of the mother boards at a lesser cost than a brand new unit. The mechanicals will be good for ever, so the only issues are the solder joints, traces cracking for heating and cooling over the years, and instrument drift / over all accuracy, and we can monitor for that as time goes on.

If, for example, one of the data busses has a cracked trace that causes intermittent loss of communication, it might very well pass the self test, but have issues up top, and if that happens, a fault code will be displayed and stored in memory, and we will see that fault code. I can defiantly see offering jumpers something to send us their unit during the down season, so we can inspect it to see how the construction and boards are doing in different environments around the world. The goal is to always stay ahead of any issues and be as proactive as possible.

Our philosophy is defiantly not “set it and forget it” and we will never say that we have “created the perfect AAD”. We encourage that the jumper be heads up about their gear on every jump, not just during the first jump gear check in the morning. Jumpers should check every aspect of their gear before every jump, and that includes checking that which ever AAD they are using is on and functioning properly.

We are putting a tremendous amount of thought into how we can maximize the value of our AAD. The advanced performance, heads up maintenance, and possible life extension through serviceability all add to the value of every dollar the user spends on this unit. Current AADs have hit a wall with their technology and they are forced to compromise functionality on one end to cover the other. Our technology will not have that problem because with the hardware in place, it is just a matter of a software adjustment. Current AADs just do not have the hardware to perform at our level.

Sorry for rambling on when you asked such straightforward question. We want to be different in that we are accessible, and are willing to tell you what we are thinking when it comes to price and lifespan.. I could have answered in two sentences, but were is the fun in that lol…

Does that answer your question? If not let me know and I will try to remain focused lol, if you or anyone else has any questions regarding anything, if I can answer then I will try my best.

[degeneration 5]

Yes, that definitely answers my questions!

Thanks for the detailed answers and explanation on top of the answer.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).