JerryBaumchen 1,047 #1 March 23, 2015 Hi folks, A good friend of mine recently purchased a new rig and the ripcord is as per the attached photo. What do you out there in Gear & RiggingLand think of it: 1. OK 2. Too long So far he is battling the factory on getting a replacement. No names will be mentioned. I only want your thoughts. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 31 #2 March 23, 2015 JerryBaumchenHi folks, A good friend of mine recently purchased a new rig and the ripcord is as per the attached photo. What do you out there in Gear & RiggingLand think of it: 1. OK 2. Too long So far he is battling the factory on getting a replacement. No names will be mentioned. I only want your thoughts. Jerry Baumchen It's on the long side. By 20-30 mm or so. That's just me! Cheers"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,903 #3 March 23, 2015 In the real world I would pass it but make a note for the customer. If it came to me on a brand new h/c I would expect the manufacturer to replace it with one the correct length. That's MY opinion since you asked. I've had a customer bring me a rig that had been packed many times with one that was several inches longer than that, but was 20 years old. She bought it new and was a small girl and the yoke was custom sized. It was the smallest ripcord they had, so they shipped it that way. It was UPT, so I ordered her a spectra bungee style one to solve the problem.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #4 March 23, 2015 JerryBaumchen So far he is battling the factory on getting a replacement. No names will be mentioned. I only want your thoughts. My thought would be it looks on the longish side and I'd probably question this to the manufacturer on a new rig. Think pillow ripcord handles and the swaged end doesn't extend below the bottom. So I would use this as a general rule of thumb. That being said I don't expect to be battling with manufacturers about such stuff - I ask, they give me the dimensions and reasoning and if its not correct I send it back and get a replacement. If it is right then I have something in writing from them that this is the correct ripcord for that rig to show the customer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #5 March 23, 2015 too long. One of my custom rigs had a cable that was a little longer than that when I got it. I ordered a second rig from the same manufacturer since I love their product. Same measurements, shorter cable. I actually had a master rigger cut the cable and swage a new ball on it so it didn't go past the end of the handle rather than buying a whole new cable/handle.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #6 March 23, 2015 mcordellI actually had a master rigger cut the cable and swage a new ball on it so it didn't go past the end of the handle How did the master rigger ensure the cable would withstand an end-to-end load of 300# (C23b, f) or 600# (C23c, d)? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #7 March 23, 2015 Hi Jerry, Too long, IMO."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #8 March 23, 2015 mark***I actually had a master rigger cut the cable and swage a new ball on it so it didn't go past the end of the handle How did the master rigger ensure the cable would withstand an end-to-end load of 300# (C23b, f) or 600# (C23c, d)? Mark By putting it into a testing device that is designed to test ripcords to the proper specification. He manufactures ripcords on a regular basis and tests each ripcord he produces to ensure it meets the proper requirements. He cut my cord, put it into a hydraulic swaging machine and put a new ball on it, then put it into the testing device and put it under tension (IIRC for 5 seconds) and I reassembled it and repacked my reserve.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammielu 3 #9 March 23, 2015 What are the specs/rules/TSO requirements (or whatever the correct term is) for the reserve cable on this rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #10 March 23, 2015 Hi sam, QuoteWhat are the specs/rules/TSO requirements (or whatever the correct term is) for the reserve cable on this rig? I believe that this rig is TSO'd under C23(d). You can find the specs/rules/TSO req'ments on the www.faa.gov website. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #11 March 23, 2015 I believe the requirement is 300lbs for 5 seconds for swaged ends on cables. The TSO doesn't specify length of the excess but it should be enough to allow the jumper to move normally and allow the cable to remain slack throughout that movement. Is that what you are asking?www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #12 March 23, 2015 mcordellHe manufactures ripcords on a regular basis He manufacturers TSO'd items? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #13 March 23, 2015 JerryBaumchenHi sam, QuoteWhat are the specs/rules/TSO requirements (or whatever the correct term is) for the reserve cable on this rig? I believe that this rig is TSO'd under C23(d). You can find the specs/rules/TSO req'ments on the www.faa.gov website. Jerry Baumchen Not quite. The TSO doesn't contain the requirements other than the fact it has to meet SAE AS8015b which is the document that specifies the minimum testing requirements. Here is what TSO C23D requires per SAE AS8015b SAE AS8015bThe ripcord, including all joints between the handle and the release, shall not fail under a straight tension test load of 1335 N (300 lbf) applied for not less than 3 seconds. If the ripcord is to be static line operated, the test shall be 2670 N (600 lbf) for not less than 3 seconds. I guess the 5 seconds my master rigger used was just his specification in excess of the requirements.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #14 March 23, 2015 mark***He manufactures ripcords on a regular basis He manufacturers TSO'd items? Mark He manufactures replacement components for TSO'd items which he is allowed under the privileges of his certificate to do. Is there something you are beating around the bush at? Feel free to come out and say whatever you are getting at. I'm a friendly guy....I won't be offended. ETA: Ripcords aren't TSOdwww.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #15 March 23, 2015 mcordellETA: Ripcords aren't TSOd Maybe that's true for C23b. However, see: C23c/AS8015A, para 2.5.7 and para 4.2.3 C23d/AS8015B, para 2.1.1.g and para 4.2.2 C23f/TS135 rev 1.4, para 2.1.1.g and Table 1 The ripcord is as much as a TSO'd component as the harness or the reserve canopy. I don't think any rig manufacturers would be happy knowing that their TSO markings were on ripcords they didn't make and QC themselves. If one of these "after-market" ripcords were to fail, what would be the procedure to trace others made by the same guy? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #16 March 23, 2015 I suppose it doesn't really matter what they think so long as it falls within his certificate which it does. What makes the manufacturer more competent to swage that ripcord than a master rigger with a hydraulic swaging tool that is identical to what the manufacturer uses? It's really not witchcraft. If he swages a ball on or replaces a damaged cable and tests it to the specifications then the ripcord meets the tso requirement which is to be tested to that spec. The ripcord is a component of the system and the system is what is certificated. The ripcord is stamped to indicate it meets that requirement. That's what I meant by "ripcords aren't TSO'd". That stamp just means it met the minimum testing per the TSO.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #17 March 23, 2015 QuoteI don't think any rig manufacturers would be happy knowing that their TSO markings were on ripcords they didn't make and QC themselves. I also don't imagine they would be happy to have their name associated with a cable which is damaged and unsafe. A master rigger replacing the cable and testing it per standards is a repair that he is capable of making. It would qualify as a major repair I would assume, but a repair non-the-less. That's the point of master riggers. That's why they are certificated to do major repairs. If everything needed to go back to the manufacturer there would be no point in having master riggers running lofts.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #18 March 24, 2015 My Infinity reserve cable looks identical to that. My Wings also is that long. I never gave it a second thought. Cut away twice on the Infinity. Never noticed an issue.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #19 March 24, 2015 Hi mcordell, QuoteETA: Ripcords aren't TSOd You still have some things to learn. I hold a TSO-authorization under TSO C23(b) for a ripcord. If you would like to see a copy of my TSO-authorization, drop me a line at: jerrybaumchen(at)gmail(dot)com Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #20 March 24, 2015 Hi mcordell, QuoteThe ripcord is a component of the system and the system is what is certificated. All components of a system must be certificated. They need not be certificated as a unit or at the same time. Some mfr certificate their harness & their container as a single TSO application. They probably would do this with their ripcord also, but I cannot speak for anyone else. My TSO's are for seperate components; i.e., a container, a harness and a ripcord. There is a very interesting and long story on why it is now possible to obtain certification of each component. I simply do not have the time to write about it now; heading for the Symposium in a few days and lots to get completed before I leave. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #21 March 24, 2015 Hi mcordell, QuoteWhat makes the manufacturer more competent to swage that ripcord than a master rigger with a hydraulic swaging tool that is identical to what the manufacturer uses? A little thing called a FAA-approved Quality Program. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #22 March 24, 2015 Which is the same thing that allows them to build a harness as part of the system but a master rigger and replace a harness on a rig. It's a major repair. I think we usually see eye to eye on a lot of things but if you are saying a master rigger can't replace a ripcord as long as they conform to the tso required testing I think we will disagree on this one.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #23 March 24, 2015 Look I don't know everything and I definitely have a lot more to learn. There are sooooo many people who know a lot more than me. I do see you as one of those people based on our interactions here. I hope I never feel like it's time to stop learning. That being said, I do see the replacement of a component as a major repair. Just because the TSO is for the components, those components are replaceable. If you can get TSO approval to manufacture ripcords then I have no doubt the guy who did mine has it. He manufactures a shit ton of stuff and replaced two harnesses for me prior to that. Being a DPRE I'm guessing he knows the regs and followed the rules when he swaged a new ball on my ripcord. What really confuses me is, with all your experience and being legally allowed to build ripcords, why are you asking and can't you fix this? I was a little surprised to see you asking this question anyway....are you just gathering opinions?www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #24 March 24, 2015 JerryBaumchenA good friend of mine recently purchased a new rig and the ripcord is as per the attached photo. What do you out there in Gear & Rigging Land think of it: 1. OK or 2. Too long Too long. The only ripcord cable I would expect to be that long would be on an SOS rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #25 March 24, 2015 Hi mcordell, Quoteare you just gathering opinions? Not opinions per se, I was wanting people's thoughts. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
