DougH 270
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Like I said before, I would think you would have an awareness of where those below you were during your track.The BR is just to check the surroundings above you.
The questions you ask would be answered differently depending on the situation and your altitude.I personally would choose to go low over a collision.
I currently suck at tracking and barrel rolls.Until I develop these skills I only jump with experienced people that are aware of my abillities(or lack of)As I grow and learn my opinions may change.This is where I'm at now.And this is the skill I'm currently working on.Or will be when the weather breaks.
The questions you ask would be answered differently depending on the situation and your altitude.I personally would choose to go low over a collision.
I currently suck at tracking and barrel rolls.Until I develop these skills I only jump with experienced people that are aware of my abillities(or lack of)As I grow and learn my opinions may change.This is where I'm at now.And this is the skill I'm currently working on.Or will be when the weather breaks.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
DougH 270
QuoteLike I said before, I would think you would have an awareness of where those below you were during your track.The BR is just to check the surroundings above you.
You loose a crucial moment of awarness while performing your barrel roll. If some one pulls below you then you barely have a split second to react. You just lost any chance if this occurs while you barrel rolling.
Edit: could you please give us the courtesy of filling out your jumping profile.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P
=P
The same goes if you dump and someone is above you.I understand your point.And I am not saying you're wrong.
A very experienced jumper I know and trust taught me this.And this is the method that is right for me.There may be situations when not to BR.But I will still work on this skill.
A very experienced jumper I know and trust taught me this.And this is the method that is right for me.There may be situations when not to BR.But I will still work on this skill.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
DougH 270
You already have your mind made up then.
I will bring up one more thing to consider, and then I will let it be. After all there are some people in this thread that I respect as some of the most knowledgeable skydivers out there, so my opinion pales in comparison.
Canopy collisions can be just as dangerous as freefall collisions.
You said that you lack tracking ability and that it is something you need to work on. Every sky dive you need to track as hard as you can. Not just for your safety but for every one else on the jump. You aren't giving the best track that you can give if you already track sub par, and you are adding something like a barrel roll.
I know I have 100's of jumps to go on my track as well. That is why I put all of my effort in to my track and don't add anything fancy in there.
I will bring up one more thing to consider, and then I will let it be. After all there are some people in this thread that I respect as some of the most knowledgeable skydivers out there, so my opinion pales in comparison.
Canopy collisions can be just as dangerous as freefall collisions.
You said that you lack tracking ability and that it is something you need to work on. Every sky dive you need to track as hard as you can. Not just for your safety but for every one else on the jump. You aren't giving the best track that you can give if you already track sub par, and you are adding something like a barrel roll.
I know I have 100's of jumps to go on my track as well. That is why I put all of my effort in to my track and don't add anything fancy in there.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P
=P
You misunderstood.I am working on tracking.I am working on barrel rolls.I have yet to combine them.I would like to develop the skills to do this.Trying to mix the 2 now when I don't do either one well, wouldn't be beneficial to me or anyone else.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
kallend 1,623
Quote
A very experienced jumper I know and trust taught me this.And this is the method that is right for me.
Did he also teach you "the 45 degree rule"?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I'm not sure what you mean. The only 45 degree rule I know is on exit instead of counting seconds?
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
kallend 1,623
QuoteI'm not sure what you mean. The only 45 degree rule I know is on exit instead of counting seconds?
That's the one. Just curious.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 2,396
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>Isn't that the whole purpose for the BR?To protect yourself from
>someone who is not paying attention to what is going on below them.
Yes. But it makes YOU less likely to see someone below you, and adds erratic behavior to boot.
Let's take another example. You're under canopy, on final. You are looking all around, and believe you are clear of all possible traffic. But you cannot, of course, see above you; your canopy is in the way. What is the best course of action?
1) Keep your eyes open, looking all around and below you, and land straight in
2) Yank aggressively on the toggles to swing your canopy back and forth, allowing you to see above your canopy momentarily
If you chose 1) then you are hoping that whoever is above you is paying attention. You count on their not running into you just as the person below you counts on you not running into _him._ If you chose 2), you are looking away from your landing (which is where you will be in a few seconds) and making yourself damn hard to predict as well. Even though you might be able to see above you, you're making the pattern less safe, and might get a lecture from the S+TA about straight-in finals.
Breakoff is similar. You are relying on the guy above you to see you. You can look left and right, but there will probably be a blind spot above and behind you. Similarly, you are relying on the guy _below_ you to track predictably, wave off and deploy as per the breakoff plan. If you stop follwing the plan, you are making things harder to predict for the guy above you and taking your eyes off the guy beneath you.
>someone who is not paying attention to what is going on below them.
Yes. But it makes YOU less likely to see someone below you, and adds erratic behavior to boot.
Let's take another example. You're under canopy, on final. You are looking all around, and believe you are clear of all possible traffic. But you cannot, of course, see above you; your canopy is in the way. What is the best course of action?
1) Keep your eyes open, looking all around and below you, and land straight in
2) Yank aggressively on the toggles to swing your canopy back and forth, allowing you to see above your canopy momentarily
If you chose 1) then you are hoping that whoever is above you is paying attention. You count on their not running into you just as the person below you counts on you not running into _him._ If you chose 2), you are looking away from your landing (which is where you will be in a few seconds) and making yourself damn hard to predict as well. Even though you might be able to see above you, you're making the pattern less safe, and might get a lecture from the S+TA about straight-in finals.
Breakoff is similar. You are relying on the guy above you to see you. You can look left and right, but there will probably be a blind spot above and behind you. Similarly, you are relying on the guy _below_ you to track predictably, wave off and deploy as per the breakoff plan. If you stop follwing the plan, you are making things harder to predict for the guy above you and taking your eyes off the guy beneath you.
D22369 0
Or "sorry about that collision, I was barrel rolling and didn't see you below me." ***
so.... as your clearing your airspace over your shoulders by looking left and right, what would you say to the person you didnt see and just slammed into?..... same thing... you took your eyes off the direction your going......
your comparing apples and oranges when both are apples.... if a person can successfully do *at the end of thier track* a barrel roll prior to the wave off and not lose stability... whats the problem? it takes me the same- if not less time than looking over both shoulders with a larger field of view.
EDIT to add: I have left a large way with a staggered altitude break off, and during my track realize I had caught a jumper from the outside whacker and he was much lower than I, I moved slightly over and as I passed him, watch him toss..... he never saw me even though i watched him look left and right.
Roy
so.... as your clearing your airspace over your shoulders by looking left and right, what would you say to the person you didnt see and just slammed into?..... same thing... you took your eyes off the direction your going......
your comparing apples and oranges when both are apples.... if a person can successfully do *at the end of thier track* a barrel roll prior to the wave off and not lose stability... whats the problem? it takes me the same- if not less time than looking over both shoulders with a larger field of view.
EDIT to add: I have left a large way with a staggered altitude break off, and during my track realize I had caught a jumper from the outside whacker and he was much lower than I, I moved slightly over and as I passed him, watch him toss..... he never saw me even though i watched him look left and right.
Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.
I understand your point.I just disagree.And perhaps, it's just because I was taught this.I think if you are skilled at this, it would not be erratic at all.You can say after a collision "that guy should've been watching below."But you might also say "I'm glad I did a BR because that guy had no idea I was below him."And as I said before, shouldn't you be aware of who's below you while tracking?
I do see both sides of this.I think which ever you choose to do it could be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.
I do see both sides of this.I think which ever you choose to do it could be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
Flyer01 0
Do I sense a bit of sarcasm?
JohnMitchell 14
Quote
That's the one. Just curious.
JohnMitchell 14
Here's the deal. We worked it out a long time ago that the low man has right of way, but will wave off before he pulls. Your responsibility is to look out below. Your responsibility is to wave off before you pull. If you're doing barrel rolls in the middle of all this, you're shirking your first responsibility. You know, you can look over your shoulder either or both ways quickly and check the sky above you as you wave off. It's a quicker and safer(IMHO) way to check for traffic above you.
QuoteIt befuddles me that new jumpers think that the sage advice from long time belly jumpers would be totally dismissed.
Welcome to DZ.com
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
trigger 0
***Why is barrel rolling so necessary for freeflying but not flat flying?
Didn't say it wasn't necessary for flat fliers,but as i have no real experience of flat flying with others i can't really comment.
What i would like to say is that if you lose sight of one or more of the jumpers on your big freefly 'zoo' dive it might be wise imo to check the airspace above you at break off and before you pitch.
This can be done by barrel rolling as you track.
Didn't say it wasn't necessary for flat fliers,but as i have no real experience of flat flying with others i can't really comment.
What i would like to say is that if you lose sight of one or more of the jumpers on your big freefly 'zoo' dive it might be wise imo to check the airspace above you at break off and before you pitch.
This can be done by barrel rolling as you track.
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.
trigger 0
>Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during
>a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it?
I've seen perhaps a dozen close calls, two collisions and one fatality from people not looking below them during breakoff. The way to solve this is to pay more attention to what is going on beneath you, not to look away during the most critical part of the breakoff.
***Were these close calls caused by the higher jumper barrel rolling? i suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
On the other hand a well excuted barrel roll by the lower jumper[assuming these people were on the same dive]might have helped avoid a situation.
>a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it?
I've seen perhaps a dozen close calls, two collisions and one fatality from people not looking below them during breakoff. The way to solve this is to pay more attention to what is going on beneath you, not to look away during the most critical part of the breakoff.
***Were these close calls caused by the higher jumper barrel rolling? i suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
On the other hand a well excuted barrel roll by the lower jumper[assuming these people were on the same dive]might have helped avoid a situation.
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.
C00KIE 0
If you chose 1) then you are hoping that whoever is above you is paying attention. You count on their not running into you just as the person below you counts on you not running into _him
But isn't the point of this thread that you can't always rely on 'whoever is above you' paying attention?
Surely you are not saying, when in doubt - do nothing.
If your BR is erratic, you need to practice. It is just another skill after all.
But isn't the point of this thread that you can't always rely on 'whoever is above you' paying attention?
Surely you are not saying, when in doubt - do nothing.
If your BR is erratic, you need to practice. It is just another skill after all.
Life is a four letter word!
IanHarrop 37
I think this post is a good answer to the question:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692646#2692646
And this one:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692762#2692762
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692646#2692646
And this one:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692762#2692762
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
billvon 2,396
>Were these close calls caused by the higher jumper barrel rolling? i
>suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
Correct. And barrel rolling will certainly not cause the same people to pay MORE attention to the area they are responsible for, which is the area beneath them.
People are sometimes inattentive. The best solution to that is to remind them to _be_ attentive - not to add a maneuver that will distract them even further.
>suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
Correct. And barrel rolling will certainly not cause the same people to pay MORE attention to the area they are responsible for, which is the area beneath them.
People are sometimes inattentive. The best solution to that is to remind them to _be_ attentive - not to add a maneuver that will distract them even further.
Quote***Why is barrel rolling so necessary for freeflying but not flat flying?
Didn't say it wasn't necessary for flat fliers,but as i have no real experience of flat flying with others i can't really comment.
What i would like to say is that if you lose sight of one or more of the jumpers on your big freefly 'zoo' dive it might be wise imo to check the airspace above you at break off and before you pitch.
This can be done by barrel rolling as you track.
We are long past the time anyone should be doing these "zoo" dives. Plan the dive, and dive the plan. If you can't then the skill level for the dive is not high enough. No matter the "zoo-y-ness", size, or complexity of the dive, everyone on the dive should know where to go on break off. If a smaller dive, all jumpers should be able to account for the position of all others prior to break off, and on larger dives there should be a break off plan discussed prior to boarding the A/C.
"Break at 5" is not good enough anymore.
Barrel Rolls while tracking waste valuable altitude and separation.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Andy9o8,
Just curious, after 31 years of skydiving, what is your opinion on this?
Just curious, after 31 years of skydiving, what is your opinion on this?
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas
Andy9o8 0
Ah. Well, I think it's generally not a good idea to barrel roll during tracking, but I'm a Joe Average weekend jumper - there are far more experienced, well-qualified and current jumpers than I in this forum, so I tossed it out for everyone to weigh in on.
(BTW, I don't have 31 straight years jumping. I started in '75, jumped off & on until '88, then took off a long hiatus until '04 while we were raising kids. (Did a few jumps during the hiatus that I didn't tell my wife about until years later. ) Stayed active in the business end of the sport during my hiatus, doing legal work for gear shops, DZ's, jump plane owners, smaller meets and boogies, etc. Spent a fair amount of time at DZs. It kept me mentally up to date on what was going on in the sport even though I wasn't jumping regularly. Resumed jumping in '04. So it's about 16 years active jumping, but I've stayed pretty involved in the sport the whole 31 years. )
(BTW, I don't have 31 straight years jumping. I started in '75, jumped off & on until '88, then took off a long hiatus until '04 while we were raising kids. (Did a few jumps during the hiatus that I didn't tell my wife about until years later.
) Stayed active in the business end of the sport during my hiatus, doing legal work for gear shops, DZ's, jump plane owners, smaller meets and boogies, etc. Spent a fair amount of time at DZs. It kept me mentally up to date on what was going on in the sport even though I wasn't jumping regularly. Resumed jumping in '04. So it's about 16 years active jumping, but I've stayed pretty involved in the sport the whole 31 years. )
How much do you think a barrel roll is going to protect you? Does the added protect outweigh the protection you get from looking down?
Ok so you see some one above you, and you deviate your course. Are you going to barrel roll again? What if the other jumper saw you and already deviated his course, good chance you will track back under him.
Do you wait for the other person to pull...???
I try and protect myself by jumping with people that I know are reliable come break off time, and having a clear break off plan.
I am more worried that some one will track under me, than the chance that some one will get over top of me from my own group. I give a good healthy wave off too.
=P
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