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riggerrob

Seat-belt hang-up?

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More importantly, he had the handicam working just fine. :)


Which allows us to see that it isn't a seatbelt hang-up but rather a 'right lateral passenger band' hang-up. And also to observe (at the end of the clip) they are so proud of this new achievement that they advertise to which establishment one should go for some whole new levels of fast paced adrenaline adventure during one's first skydiving adventure... :$:S

I guess it is safe to say this is a double fail - first in preventing the added danger by not rigorously following procedures and second in giving yourself a black eye two years after the fact by sending your student on his way with his video to post that footage of 'you with your pants down' on youtube where sooner or later the DZ.com crowd will find it and give you some constructive criticism. :)B|

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Liemberg

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More importantly, he had the handicam working just fine. :)


Which allows us to see that it isn't a seatbelt hang-up but rather a 'right lateral passenger band' hang-up. And also to observe (at the end of the clip) they are so proud of this new achievement that they advertise to which establishment one should go for some whole new levels of fast paced adrenaline adventure during one's first skydiving adventure... :$:S

I guess it is safe to say this is a double fail - first in preventing the added danger by not rigorously following procedures and second in giving yourself a black eye two years after the fact by sending your student on his way with his video to post that footage of 'you with your pants down' on youtube where sooner or later the DZ.com crowd will find it and give you some constructive criticism. :)B|


..........................................................................

Yes
Most professional DZs would have said "Sorry but the camera quit. Here is your refund."

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...

At least ion the UK the aircraft doesn't even move until the student is hooked up correctly.

..................................................................................

In most other countries, TIs hook onto their students party way up. In most other countries, a seat-belt is considered sufficient restraint for tandem students.
I only hook onto my student - on the ground - if there is an open door on the airplane, or it is too tight to hook up while climbing. The last time I jumped from a narrow-body Cessna 182, I hooked up the side straps before the pilot closed the door. Did I tell you that I dislike jumping from airplanes older than me??
Normally, I claim the "old man's seat" behind the pilot, so that I don't have to start hooking up until we climb above 4,000 feet.

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riggerrob

Inertia reel seat-belts and auto-retract seat-belts have been available in cars for 30(?) years now. Why can't we install auto-retract belts in jump-planes?



Good question. The retract device may not handle the G's necessary to get aviation approval.

Anyone know?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Retractable seat belts for aircraft? Hell, most light aircraft also don't have windshield wipers or headrests or airbags or even "modern" engines. If the FAA were in charge of automobiles, they probable wouldn't have any of these safety devices either. FAA regulations (and lawyers) make everything related to aviation so expensive that I'm surprised we're still flying light aircraft. Although most of the people I know in the FAA are decent and hard working, the system is so complex, that they have to move mountains to get anything done. Remember, it took them over 20 years just to "legalize" tandem.

One thing to remember, all safety devices, even seat belts, can kill people in certain circumstances. As long as they save more people than they kill they are still a good thing.

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Agreed Bill.
If you thought FAA Supplementary Type Certificate processes were complicated, try Transport Canada!
I got an insight into TC's STC process when I wrote technical manuals for MBB Helicopter of Canada (now part of Eurocopter) 25 years ago. One of MBB's biggest hassles was the difference between FAA and TC STCs.
Often the red-neck engineers at Keystone Helicopters (in Pennsylvania) would quickly weld up a new mount for a searchlight or rescue hoist, etc. The FAA promptly issued STCs for Keystone's mounts.
But try getting an FAA STC past TC?
Hah!
Hah!
TC insisted on a full engineering analysis, by a diplomaed engineer, CAD drawings. Ten or 15 hours of test-flying by a certified test pilot, a pile of paperwork exceeding the weight of the new mount, etc. ... an exhausting process!
By the end of TC's STC process, the new Canadian mount did the same job as Keystone's, was 10 percent lighter, 10 percent cheaper to manufacture, but I shudder to think of how many thousand dollars it cost to certify! A huge price to pay for a piece of paper issued by TC.
I see this process as a form of bureaucratic cowardess, driven by the legal industry. Bureaucrats are afraid that any mistake on their watch will kill their pension, so they avoid making mistakes. The simplest way to avoid making mistakes is to never do anything. The second way to avoid making mistakes is to create enough different layers - and involve enough different people that the blaim can be spread thin enough that no one person loses their pension.
If the aviation industry grinds to a halt, that is a bonus, because when no one flies, no one gets hurt.

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riggerrob

Hi Bill,

What type of seat-belts were installed in your Lake Amphibian during its last flight?



Good ones. I didn't eat the instrument panel, but the next day I was sore everywhere the seat belt touched my body. Without seat belts, I probably would not have made it. I encourage every jumper to use them on every jump. Just be sure they are tucked out of the way before you jump, especially when exiting small aircraft.

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billbooth

***Hi Bill,

What type of seat-belts were installed in your Lake Amphibian during its last flight?



Good ones. I didn't eat the instrument panel, but the next day I was sore everywhere the seat belt touched my body. Without seat belts, I probably would not have made it. I encourage every jumper to use them on every jump. Just be sure they are tucked out of the way before you jump, especially when exiting small aircraft.

.................................................................................

Bill,

Thanks for the quick response and kind advice.
Can we add seat-belts to the 19 Sacred Commandments to Tandem Instructors.``

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billbooth

***Hi Bill,

What type of seat-belts were installed in your Lake Amphibian during its last flight?



Good ones. I didn't eat the instrument panel, but the next day I was sore everywhere the seat belt touched my body. Without seat belts, I probably would not have made it. I encourage every jumper to use them on every jump. Just be sure they are tucked out of the way before you jump, especially when exiting small aircraft.

Bill, I often wonder how much good our seat belts actually do in typical configurations. Depending on the set up our belts are often single-point connected and I almost never see jumpers snug them up, making them less than effective in keeping jumpers in place in a crash.

The belt thing came after the Perris thing and the touted benefit was keeping jumpers in position so we wouldn't crush one another in a high G situation. Single point belt configurations may minimize movement if tightened, but most jumpers I see where them in a way that they could still move 1, or 2 feet before the belt would stop them. That would still equate to a lot of carnage in a high G scenario.

I see our current seat belt use as a band aid on a much bigger problem at best, and window dressing to satisfy the feds at worst.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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riggerrob



I see this process as a form of bureaucratic cowardess, driven by the legal industry. Bureaucrats are afraid that any mistake on their watch will kill their pension, so they avoid making mistakes. The simplest way to avoid making mistakes is to never do anything.


Absolutely true. No bureaucrat ever got fired for saying "No". It's that simple. I saw things in the FAA that disgusted me. :|.

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chuckakers

but most jumpers I see where them in a way that they could still move 1, or 2 feet before the belt would stop them.
I see our current seat belt use as a band aid on a much bigger problem at best, and window dressing to satisfy the feds at worst.

I think more like 4 to 5 feet when people reach behind and thread a seatbelt thru their main lift web when sitting on Caravan floors. If able, I'll buckle it around me, even though around the waist instead of hips risks a broken back.

Some seat belt usage I've had to do was, yes, just checking a square on the box. Safety was barely enhanced, if at all.

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There were actually three jump-plane crashes back in 1992. A twin Otter crashed in Perris Valley, California in the springtime. 16 out of 22 Perrisites died in that crash.
Labour Day, a Beech 18 flipped, crashed and burned near Hinckley, Illinois killing all on board.
A Westwing Beech 18 ground-looped in Arizona. Fortunately, no one was seriously injured in the Westwind accident.

The FAA was shocked by the carnage, lack of seat-belts and poor maintenance on jump-planes. The FAA quietly told USPA elders to "clean up your act or you will not enjoy our new legislation." Over the winter of 1992 - 1993, most DZs cleaned up their jump-planes to more closely obey long-standing air regulations about maintenance and seat-belts. Since old piston-pounding Beech 18s, DC-3s, etc were getting too expensive to maintain, they quietly retired from the skydiving fleet.
As for seat-belts ... fortunately a retired jumper named Jack Hooker had already sewn up a few prototype skydiver-specific seat-belts and they were installed in a Cessna 182 based at Hinckley, Illinois. Over the winter of 1992 - 1993, Hooker sold thousands of seat-belts and USPA made seat-belts fashionable for skydivers.
The FAA quietly backed down, now that skydivers were following regulations.
Jack Hooker's seat-belts may not be perfect, but they are a huge improvement over anything invented by NATO or the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War. However, seat-belts only reduce flail arcs and center of gravity shifts when they are snug.
Young skydivers need to be reminded to snug down seat-belts.
Maybe USPA should launch a campaign to make snug seat-belts fashionable for take-off.

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riggerrob

There were actually three jump-plane crashes back in 1992. A twin Otter crashed in Perris Valley, California in the springtime. 16 out of 22 Perrisites died in that crash.
Labour Day, a Beech 18 flipped, crashed and burned near Hinckley, Illinois killing all on board.
A Westwing Beech 18 ground-looped in Arizona. Fortunately, no one was seriously injured in the Westwind accident.

The FAA was shocked by the carnage, lack of seat-belts and poor maintenance on jump-planes. The FAA quietly told USPA elders to "clean up your act or you will not enjoy our new legislation." Over the winter of 1992 - 1993, most DZs cleaned up their jump-planes to more closely obey long-standing air regulations about maintenance and seat-belts. Since old piston-pounding Beech 18s, DC-3s, etc were getting too expensive to maintain, they quietly retired from the skydiving fleet.
As for seat-belts ... fortunately a retired jumper named Jack Hooker had already sewn up a few prototype skydiver-specific seat-belts and they were installed in a Cessna 182 based at Hinckley, Illinois. Over the winter of 1992 - 1993, Hooker sold thousands of seat-belts and USPA made seat-belts fashionable for skydivers.
The FAA quietly backed down, now that skydivers were following regulations.
Jack Hooker's seat-belts may not be perfect, but they are a huge improvement over anything invented by NATO or the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War. However, seat-belts only reduce flail arcs and center of gravity shifts when they are snug.
Young skydivers need to be reminded to snug down seat-belts.
Maybe USPA should launch a campaign to make snug seat-belts fashionable for take-off.



Not sure what you mean by USPA making seat belt use "fashionable". As I remember it the message was more like "wear 'em or the feds will crack the whip".

Not sure about maintenance costs being the reason for retiring old birds either. I think a lot of the fleet upgrades came from aging turbine aircraft becoming more affordable at the same time the sport was growing like a weed, creating an audience that could support them. Add in the competitive advantage that a turbine gave drop zones and many DZ's were forced to upgrade or die.

BTW, in my experience very few jumpers of any experience level snug their belts. I would agree that we should make it part of our routine. The less we can move in a crash, the less mess we will make.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

BTW, in my experience very few jumpers of any experience level snug their belts. I would agree that we should make it part of our routine. The less we can move in a crash, the less mess we will make.



I do, but I'm weird... I also ride the plane down when the ground winds come up too high and go home to pack my reserve when its out of date...

If anyone questions the notion, look at the video recently sent of someone going out with a single side still attached. Watch how far they end up from the actual attach point by the time its under full tension. Now, how far forward would they go in the plane cabin during a nose-low impact?? You think that will save anyone from the types of pile-on crush injuries we saw in the '92-'93 accidents (and others)?

When I started in '90, seatbelts were shunned (as were AAD's and other 'normal' items). We fixed that, we can fix this too. But it takes both national promotion and grass roots attitude.

Do it yourself, and share the 'why' when asked... a good place to start.

Just my $.02
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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chuckakers



BTW, in my experience very few jumpers of any experience level snug their belts. I would agree that we should make it part of our routine. The less we can move in a crash, the less mess we will make.

Very true. I like 'em tight. The loose seatbelts, esp. the single point thru the harness, look like little protection to me.

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I think more like 4 to 5 feet when people reach behind and thread a seatbelt thru their main lift web when sitting on Caravan floors.



I was wondering the same thing:
Why are the seatbelts set up so that you have to reach behind and take the seatbelt. There's a much higher risk an airplane will encounter a sudden stop comparing to sudden acceleration. In a sudden stop scenario, you'll travel towards the nose of the airplane the length of the seatbelt, and then another length until it's tight. If seatbelts were attached a bit forward (instead of reaching back for them), wouldn't that be better? (referring to standard sit-on-the-floor Caravan/etc seatbelt setup)

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drudchen

If seatbelts were attached a bit forward (instead of reaching back for them), wouldn't that be better? (referring to standard sit-on-the-floor Caravan/etc seatbelt setup)

I think so. Sometimes, if I have the access and room, I'll actually run that seatbelt around my hips/waist and cinch it down. But usually you can't get the one next to you. The person between your legs wants it.

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