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NegroKarlezi

PD or Icarus

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I vote for the Pulse. Easier to pack, fun to fly, fabulous ability to get you back from a bad spot, better resale value. But the 2 choices aren't really completely in the same class. The Safire 2 is also a good canopy, but more like a Sabre 2 than a Pulse.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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The Pulse has a flatter glide compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2. The closer canopy to the PD Pulse is actually the Aerodyne Pilot. The Pulse packs easy because it has the same (similar, at least) low bulk material as the Optimum reserve for its bottom skin. Don't pass up the Storm since it's a really nice canopy, as well.

If you have *ANY* chance to demo these canopies, do it. That will help guide your decision (and should do) more than what other people on the intarnetz think.

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Your profile says you have 20 jumps and are currently jumping a 230 square foot canopy loaded at 1.02 lbs/sf, which means you have an exit weight of approximately 235 lbs. Assuming all of that data is accurate, I would personally (as a grumpy old skydiver) recommend that neither canopy in that size is a good choice. A wingloading of 1.38 as a new jumper is outside of the generally-accepted wingloading recommendations.

The good news is that both of those canopies come in several larger sizes and are good choices at an appropriate wingloading.

These recommendations should also apply to the reserve canopy that you choose.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3470220;
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3470220;
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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NWFlyer

Your profile says you have 20 jumps and are currently jumping a 230 square foot canopy loaded at 1.02 lbs/sf, which means you have an exit weight of approximately 235 lbs. Assuming all of that data is accurate, I would personally (as a grumpy old skydiver) recommend that neither canopy in that size is a good choice. A wingloading of 1.38 as a new jumper is outside of the generally-accepted wingloading recommendations.

The good news is that both of those canopies come in several larger sizes and are good choices at an appropriate wingloading.

These recommendations should also apply to the reserve canopy that you choose.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3470220;
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3470220;



Thanks for the advice!!! i have to renew my Bio, now i have 100 jumps and i'm currently using a 190 safire!!!!!!!! but, thanks for your concern, in my dropzone we have a lot of wind
Stay safe and keep flying

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you are downsizing way too fast. you're gonna die and make everyone else around you die as well. yes even your puppy will die because of that.




Actually I have no effing clue but it seems like a pretty good, generic answer from what I have read so far....
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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NegroKarlezi

in my dropzone we have a lot of wind



That's on my personal list* of "not-very-good reasons to downsize" but you're not the first person to use it and you certainly won't be the last. :)




*Other reasons include:
-I got a really sweet deal on the canopy.
-I'm planning to lose 20 lbs one of these days so it's not really a downsize.
-I stood up all of my landings on the larger size so I'm definitely ready. All 10 of them.
-I want a smaller container so I can fly better.
-All the cool kids have smaller canopies.
-I have tons of experience in [other extreeeeeme sport] so it'll totally translate to canopy flight.
-I've got mad skillz.
-Everyone told me I'd be bored after 100 jumps so it must be time to downsize.
-The wingloading chart says I can downsize so I have to downsize.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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NWFlyer

***in my dropzone we have a lot of wind



That's on my personal list* of "not-very-good reasons to downsize" but you're not the first person to use it and you certainly won't be the last. :)



ok so on a very serious note this time.....I have heard, and it kind makes sense, that a smaller canopy is easier to land (i didnt say fly) in stronger winds. I guess it's because you go faster but the higher wind kinda cancels that. So why higher winds are not a valid point to downsize ?

Is backing up the entire descent and even on landing a better deal ?

just curious
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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ok so on a very serious note this time.....I have heard, and it kind makes sense, that a smaller canopy is easier to land (i didnt say fly) in stronger winds. I guess it's because you go faster but the higher wind kinda cancels that. So why higher winds are not a valid point to downsize ?

Is backing up the entire descent and even on landing a better deal ?



If you don't have the knowledge to understand why this is wrong you seriously need to get more experience before downsizing. Get real knowledge at the DZ, not on the interweb. But briefly, if your modern ZP 9 cell canopy loaded at 1:1 or higher is backing up at landing time it is TOO WINDY FOR JUMPING. A smaller canopy is NEVER the answer in this situation.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Although a smaller canopy can handle turbulence somewhat better, the canopy ride as a whole is probably not going to be a better experience. A smaller canopy gives more response and more speed, which means you have to time and control the flare better.

Besides, if the winds are that strong, I on my part prefer staying on the ground watching inexperienced skydivers become experienced (Or - advice them not to go up)

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gowlerk

Quote

ok so on a very serious note this time.....I have heard, and it kind makes sense, that a smaller canopy is easier to land (i didnt say fly) in stronger winds. I guess it's because you go faster but the higher wind kinda cancels that. So why higher winds are not a valid point to downsize ?

Is backing up the entire descent and even on landing a better deal ?



If you don't have the knowledge to understand why this is wrong you seriously need to get more experience before downsizing.



I am not downsizing anything so I guess I am fine on this one.but I appreciate your concern for my skydiving career.

I was just thinking that if you have billion of experience under a certain size and this said size is restraining you from jumping because of a bit (not 340 knots) of excess wind, then maybe downsizing is not a bad deal after all.....but I guess I have it all wrong.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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I'm really interested in all your input, and i'm very thankful

i know that wind is never a reason for downsizing, i'm still flying my 190 and i'm planing to do so for 6 plus more months.

Even when i get my new canopy if i'm not ready for using it i will keep it in my home. I'm buying the 169 because i'm buying a completely new rig, Vector V3 plus canopy so i'm not planning to use it very soon.

I started flying a 265 just for my 5 first jumps, i was very difficult for me to fly that canopy because of the wind and turbulence, after that i was using a 230 but it was almost the same, now i'm using 190 y it feels great, great flying and landing. but i'm not ready to downsize just yet to a 169. I'm buying it for next season!!!

B|B|B|;););)
Stay safe and keep flying

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NegroKarlezi

i'm buying a completely new rig, Vector V3 plus canopy so i'm not planning to use it very soon.



This is true. I've often said "I can grow a human child faster than they can build me a rig." :D:D:D
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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yvanpec

ok so on a very serious note this time.....I have heard, and it kind makes sense, that a smaller canopy is easier to land (i didnt say fly) in stronger winds. I guess it's because you go faster but the higher wind kinda cancels that. So why higher winds are not a valid point to downsize ?


Person asks a legitimate question in an effort to learn; gets a sarcastic response? You must be on dropzone.com.

Serious answer does not equal a recommendation for you to downsize!

As wind speed gets closer to your canopy's forward speed, your ground speed slows down (ground speed = canopy speed - wind speed). When you get to 0 ground speed, your visual for landings become weird (how often do people practice that picture?) and, once you do land, you need to be able to control and deal with your canopy in a fair amount of wind when it basically wants to keep flying. If wind speed is faster than your canopy's forward speed, you start going backwards which, as you can imagine, can be quite dangerous, not only in finding somewhere safe to land but also dealing with obstacles behind you once you land because that's where you'll end up if you don't shut down your wing (yes, people have been hurt and killed). There are procedures for dealing with this scenario should you be in the unfortunate position of having to land in winds faster than your canopy's forward speed - ask an instructor.

Mechanical turbulence (turbulence from objects) is another factor that is exacerbated by higher winds and, in fact, thermal activity is pushed in the direction the wind is going so you'll find lifting air (AND the associated sinking air) that isn't visually above the object that's creating it (runways, houses, etc.).

All of these things are extremely important when considering whether to board the plane but not so much when you're buying a wing. I say this because you should be able to land your wing safely in any conditions you're going to jump in, anywhere you're going to jump. This means that, while you're thinking of your canopy skills in the context of landing into this wind, have a think about your ability to land this smaller, faster wing *DOWN WIND* (canopy speed + wind speed = down wind ground speed) and cross wind, in emergency situations where you need to react but keep your wing above your head.

As many more experienced peeps than me have said, a higher loaded wing will tend to handle turbulence better than a lighter loaded wing but the higher loaded wing will handle any eventual collapse in a much more dangerous way. This is all a matter of scale and people's abilities. There are some people with a lot of jumps who choose (rightly!) to stay on an docile, lightly loaded canopy because that's what they can be safe flying in all conditions given the investment in training they're willing to put into their wing and what they feel is safe for them.

I talked with my AFF/I about canopies and other safety issues at least up to 100 jumps and still did after that. You should as well since those experienced people who know you best will better be able to explain these issues to you and know you and your skills much better than some random person on dropzone.com.

Asking questions is great, learning is good. When you take information you get from an unknown source and decide to make decisions on it, you may be taking a big risk that you don't understand.

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thank you Danielcroft. Your post made good sense.

The more I am reading, the more I think im starting to figure out a couple things. Let's take my extremely short experience as an example.

30 jumps. nothing, right ? But it's hard for my brain to imagine something that has not happened yet, because I had 30 canopy flights and 30 good landings. Also, i am sure my instructors are no strangers to this because we got grounded a few times. I m sure if I d had gone up,things would have hit the fan real quick.

Now, I can notice that people in this sport care about jump numbers. "Hi, I have 300 jumps and wanna downsize" will always get a "go ahead buddy ".....fact is, you can jump 300 times and don't practice anything under canopy, always jump in the same climatic conditions. Does it make him more prepared than the guy who has 150 jumps, opened early and worked the shit out of his canopy on every single jump ? I very much doubt it.

So yeah, I am starting to think that those questions should't even be addressed online......I mean, don't get me wrong, great knowledgeable forum, but too many copy/paste type of answers on these downsizing topics. I can sense a lot of frustration from some posters.
Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

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NegroKarlezi

Hi every one, i'm buying a new canopy and a can't decide if should buy Icarus Safire 169 2 or a PD Pulse 170... any info?

Stay safe



Since adults get to play by Big Boy Rules I'll answer your question. I'd heed, however, the advice of our betters who have more experience (both time in sport and jumps). So, on to marginal decisions.

I suspect you're on a *Safire2* 189 unless there is a custom 190 around out there. If you're on a Safire1 it really is a 180. Check your data panel and be a bit more precise, please.

At any rate, a Safire (10-20 sqft smaller) 169 will be: a little smaller (duh), will turn a bit quicker, will dive a bit longer and flare just as nice as your current Safire. It will also come in a bit quicker. Margins for error will be reduced. Some people say that 20 sqft will produce a massively different level of performance. I, personally, found the difference negligible at about the same wingloadings you're talking about. YMMV, I guess. If you do get a new wing for whatever reason...fly predictable and not stupid.

On to the comparison:

OPENING
Pulse: short, fast and very positive.
Safire: long and soft (in comparison)

FULL FLIGHT GLIDE
Pulse: glides forever. Much flatter than the Safire. Bring a book on a long spot
Safire: still excellent just not as flat as the Pulse

TOGGLES / TURNS
Pulse: very light toggle pressure. Initiation and rate of turn faster than the Safire. Fun to fly / toggle whip
Safire: a bit heavier pressure, turn *rate* not as fast

DIVE / RECOVERY ARC
Pulse: short and shallow. Recovers quick
Safire: longer and slightly deeper.

RISER PRESSURE
Pulse: heavy
Safire: lighter for sure

FLARE
Pulse: a bit mushier. Can feel a bit like it runs out of "oomph". Shorter toggle stroke. But it is a parachute and it isn't rocket science to land
Safire: more in the bottom end and the stroke is deeper.

The first parachute I owned was a Pulse 170 and I thought it was a brilliant parachute to learn on...fun to fly and did everything I wanted it to at the time. I just got tired of the openings. Too fast and too firm for my taste - especially when compared to other options on the market. The other options (Safire / Sabre) have more all around performance and are aimed at a slightly different segment, I think. Both open a hell of a lot better (with respect to what I was looking for out of a parachute).

Ceterius paribus, the smaller Safire will fly similar to what you have as the parachute is basically the same but smaller. The Pulse will fly open and land a bit different. PD has a demo program that is cheap and easy and worth your time.

I've seen two people die this year. One under a crossfire at ~1.5 and the other under a pulse at barely 1.2...thr crossfire was dumb low turn and the pulse was a garden variety mal that ended up getting out of hand. The Pulse jumper had close to 2k jumps, was current and was safe.

Think about what you're doing.

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yvanpec

So yeah, I am starting to think that those questions should't even be addressed online......I mean, don't get me wrong, great knowledgeable forum, but too many copy/paste type of answers on these downsizing topics. I can sense a lot of frustration from some posters.


There is a lot of frustration because many people only want to hear whatever confirms what they already think. You can take someone who is relatively new to the sport, say 100 jumps, and they'll want to downsize because it's "cool". They come into what is effectively an anonymous forum looking for someone to agree with the choices they've already decided to make at which point they'll throw a fit because someone with years of experience and thousands of jumps will reveal to them some of the universe that they didn't know existed.

There are certainly cases of people being ahead of the curve and being capable of flying a faster canopy than their jump numbers may suggest but those people don't come to dropzone.com looking for someone to validate them, they'll generally come looking for information that fills in the blanks to what they've already talked to their local, experienced people about and they'll take that back to discuss with those same people. These people train and take the wing they choose to fly (in the case of downsizing) very seriously. Conversely, there are cases (a couple that played out here, quite depressingly) of people ignoring all the advice of the people around them and being seriously hurt and killed.

I'd lying if I didn't say there was some ego involved in my own canopy choices and I'd argue that people who deny this are also lying, but I've never come to someone anonymous to ask if my canopy choices were ok. I've asked and got solid answers from people I know and who know me and the way I treat these things. "Solid answers" doesn't mean I always got a "yes".

This same mentality applies to all aspects of the sport we choose to participate in, not just our canopy choices.

hillson

Think about what you're doing.


Nice post, hillson.

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I just looked at your profile and realized you're not in the US...so the PD demo program probably won't work. Lol.

Go to the performance designs website and look at the product page for both the sabre2 and the pulse. They both have documents that say something like "sabre2/pulse flight characteristics." The sabre2 is close enough to the Safire that it will fly similar. Read both documents and they really detail some of the important stuff and you might get a better sense of how they fly differently. And then talk to your locals about it.

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yvanpec

...Now, I can notice that people in this sport care about jump numbers. "Hi, I have 300 jumps and wanna downsize" will always get a "go ahead buddy ".....fact is, you can jump 300 times and don't practice anything under canopy, always jump in the same climatic conditions. Does it make him more prepared than the guy who has 150 jumps, opened early and worked the shit out of his canopy on every single jump ? I very much doubt it.

So yeah, I am starting to think that those questions should't even be addressed online......I mean, don't get me wrong, great knowledgeable forum, but too many copy/paste type of answers on these downsizing topics. I can sense a lot of frustration from some posters.



You are ignoring the fact that the person who did 300 "plain" jumps still did 300 patterns. Still got the sight picture on final 300 times. And made 300 landings.

That experience is important. That experience will put them ahead of the person who did 150 jumps that were "working the shit" out of the canopy. Because while drills up high are important and helpful, there's really nothing that accurately simulates canopy flight close to the ground.

And yes, you will get the feeling that people are frustrated when responding to these questions about downsizing.
Because they pop up on a regular basis, they are often the same, the answers are the same (by the same people) and the response to those answers are often the same.

"I wanna downsize"
"How much experience do you have? How many jumps?"
"(Not enough)"
"Well then, you shouldn't downsize. It's dangerous and unnecessary."
"But I want to. Besides I'm an awesome (insert other extreme sport; skiing/snowboarding, motorcycles, surfing, ect.) so I have skills and experience."
"It doesn't translate. It might help a little, but what specific skills do you have?"
"But I want to! You don't understand."

Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes they have a close call, get some sense scared into them, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes it takes an injury to learn their lesson. Sometimes they have 2 or 3 seconds left in their life to realize how wrong they were.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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One thing to consider about the Pulse. As you get closer to a WL of 1.4, the flare power diminishes. I would suggest another canopy instead. If you like your Safire, stick with it.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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