good deal ?

[yvanpec 1]

hi all. New to the sport here. I have done some extensive (I mean, exten-fuckin-sive) research on gear as I am looking for my first rig. I think I found a sweet sweet deal but asking for advice is always good before dropping the moneyz.

My exit weigh is approx 168 pounds. 170 if I had a good night at the bar the day before. I have jumped Nav 240 and 220 during AFF. Then they put me on a Safire 2 210 for a few jumps and finally a 190 for 5 jumps.

I have 30 jumps, but since money is not really an issue, I wanna buy a nice comfy rig. I jumped a couple rentals that made me wanna land that canopy veryyyyyyyy quickly (you know, when the leg straps cut into your femorals....).

I have found an Icon i4. date of man. may 2008. it has a smart 150 reserve with 0 opening, a cypres 2 and a 150 mamba. I contacted the seller and offered to buy the rig minus the Mamba, because apparently I will die flying it. And I dont want to anyways. I want a docile main as my DZ here has a landing area the size of a paper towel.

The whole system has 2 jumps on it. Owner just had his second kid and want to retire from jumping.

He is OK to sell me the rig (no main) for 2700 bucks. Also, it fits like a glove. I got to see it in person and it looks perfect. stitching, material, everything ! It has an RSL, soft res handle, hook knife...

I called Aerodyne and they said I could stuff a 188 zpx pilot in it. So, I was thinking, start with that for a few hundred, then i can put a 168 in it, than a 150 and finally, if ever, a 135.

So I am thinking it's a sweet sweet deal....since it'll last me forever.

Any input ? Things I should consider ? thx guys.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[justme12001 0]

my vote is not a good deal for you! 150 reserve is 40 sqft smaller than the smallest thing you have jumped

[yvanpec 1]

that's what I was thinking (I am not sure how 40sqft of canopy affects flight due to my newbieness). I'll keep looking then . Thx !

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[pchapman 261]

That size reserve is pushing it a bit. It is a risk others have taken though.

It would be really nice for you to get some more experience though, until you've downsized to a 170 and are really comfortable with it, landing it in your paper towel sized LZ in any conditions.

Then the 150 would be only one size down, not such a big deal even if it still wouldn't match Aerodyne's or Germain's recommendations until you got a bunch more jumps. At only 30 jumps it isn't so much about slightly more speed under a small canopy, as the potential to do something really dumb. So you want to have good flying sense in general before downsizing a bunch.

[yvanpec 1]

I have been reading a lot and talked a lot with my instructor. Before starting to jump i could not really understand why people would wanna downsize quickly, but now, I can certainly understand it more.

Being under a 240 and 220 was fine. We had maybe 3-5 knots of steady winds during my first 8 landings and I stood up maybe 6 of them. Now, I didnt try crazy stuff but I played with rear risers on my second jump already, because I am very curious of all the mechanics of flying. Then i rented out the safire 2 210 ( My landings were better but the wind was maybe 10-12 so I probably had lesser horizontal speed to deal with.) and I felt like it was more fun, and the responsiveness made me feel more secure because I could adjust quicker (which i understand is in fact the issue with low experience). Then I jumped a 190 and everything was even better, and i am still at a .9 wind loading.

Point is, this could be a feeling someone could very much want to feel again, and therefore push to make bad decisions.

That being said, I'm fine renting gear to the point where my coach tells me to I can fly a smaller canopy.

I thought maybe a 150 reserve wasnt that bad but i had a strong feeling it would be a bit too aggressive.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[Quagmirian 40]

PD recommends at least 300 jumps before jumping a reserve with a wing loading higher than 1.0. They also warn about unconscious AAD deployments.

[yvanpec 1]

So, I wanted to discuss a couple things that seem interesting to me. PLease PLEASE don't see this as "let's do whatever we wanna do and fuck an advice" but more as a discussion topic.

I smoke. It'll certainly kill me and make my life miserable when i get lung cancer later down the road.

I drive. And I break the speed limit every single day.

I ride a motorcycle, and I ride it like a moron. If i wanted it to be 100% safe, I'd watch it on TV.

I cross the road when it says don't cross.You know, the one where you hurry a little bit because if you don't, you'll likely get run over by that sweet Honda Civic.

I have drank more than reason would allow,on countless nights.

I surf big waves every chance I can.

I used to skateboard, and always wanted to jump the 12 flight of stairs instead of the 11 one that was right by it.

With all the above accounted for, as long as my gear is in perfect working order, let me tell you that the least of my worries is a .1 overloading on a reserve chute. And AGAIN, not caring doesn't mean I don't UNDERSTAND it.

it might sound stupid for some people, but I feel like....let's not get too hypocritical on advices we give and choices we make.

I also noticed something during my short stay at the DZ: Natural Abilities

I have seen people not find a pull handle. To this day, I still can't even comprehend how that's possible. I have seen people turn right under canopy when the instructor was yelling on the radio " TURN LEFT !!!! LEFT !!!!". I have seen people simply give up on their AFF altogether. I have seen people show up for AFF and not even knowing that there's 2 parachutes in a container....."Hey I want to drive.....ohhhhhhh there are different gears ????? no way !"...........

I m sure if your life has consisted of watching sport on TV, your learning curve is a little bit steeper than the guy who did some surfing, gymnastics, hell.....whatever that teaches you body and space awareness.

Now, if I was an S&TA at a drop zone, I'd consider everyone a retard and put them on the safest gear, wingloading, just because I would not want to be blamed in case of an accident. That's understandable.

I was given instruction to practice my flare, do the landing pattern on my 1st and second jump. On my third, I pulled and once under canopy I heard "Yvan, give me a practice flare and do whatever the fuck you want " which I didn't take as a " pull hard on a front riser and go swoop that landing" but I took it as a " I must be showing good enough skills that they take time away from me to give it to the other guys who are really struggling with this thing"

So again, not saying I won't be taking advice....I love advice, but with everything else in life, it's pretty clear not everyone as the same natural ability to perform such or such things.

I'd rather have someone capable on a 1.5 wingloading after 100 jumps than a complete retard on a .8 wingloading that still lands crosswind cause he can't figure it out after 80 jumps.

Fire.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[monkycndo 0]

Yvan, the problem is, most people think they are above average. Kind of impossible. Finding out where one falls on the bell curve takes some time. So starting out expecting everyone is on the left side of the curve hopefully prevents those that are from injuring themselves.

The fact you are asking these questions is a good sign. When starting to skydive, there is so much that you don't know that you don't know. There are quite a few people on here that pushed the limits on canopies and got away with it. They will also tell you they were damn lucky. There are also folks that pushed and got bit. Here is a thread about Sangi, only jumping a WL of 1.2. If you read threads by/about him, he felt he was above average until the ground told him otherwise.

Taking your time to learn to fly what might feel like a tug boat will build skills that will translate to smaller canopies. Jumping a smaller canopy where you will be OK "if you fly it conservatively" can lead you to injury when you get cut off in the landing pattern and have to make an evasive maneuver. A hard toggle turn on a boat will turn you. A hard toggle turn on a heavier loaded zippy canopy could turn you into the ground. Natural ability only goes so far, then experience has to kick in. The only problem is, it takes experience to know where that is.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[yvanpec 1]

I totally agree with you. I think the sport has developped enough to a point where you can find info pretty easily. Everytime I asked a question to any instructors at the DZ, my questions were received with lots of understanding and led to great discussions. It was really enjoyable and it made me feel like people cared.

Norm said to me " Confident, cocky, dead". It's in the back of my head for sure.

What is sometimes hard is to deal with different structures. In switzerland, the DZ said they had no problem letting me jump a 190/190 canopy. Only 6 people per load, not much canopy traffic. Then I go 20 miles out in France and they said no way, I need at least a 220 and a student AAD.

If I drive a car for a good bit, there is a good chance I'll get to know the car. If I drive any other car every other day, I'll know a tiny bit about each car, right ? So what's best ? Knowing a bit about 5 different canopies or knowing one canopy well ? How does sitting in a painful harness wanna make me practice canopy flight ? Being comfy under a 190 or hurting under a 220 ? which is safer ?

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[gowlerk 1,910]

As far as I'm concern you are basically correct. Skydiving is a risk sport that often attracts some people who are willing to accept more risk than others. It`s an adult sport, and as such participants should largely be allowed to choose their own level of risk. Up to a point, and assuming that they show a reasonable understanding of the risk.

This brings up experience levels. Not just your personal experience and performance in the sport, but the experience and wisdom that comes from years of watching others. The more years you have, the more you will realize that "natural abilities" will not save anyone who pushes the envelope too far on any given jump. That is any ONE jump. The planet is so very unforgiving. Even people who are doing well learning, as well as those who most of us would consider to be advanced canopy pilots are subject to this unyielding rule.

So yes, choose a higher risk if you like. But be prepared to hear from others that they don't like your choice. And if you step too far out of what is considered reasonable, be prepared to be told that your business is no longer welcome at the DZ. That's because they have seen or knew people who thought they had it all under control, and even people who had years of training under their belt make mistakes that caused them to die, right in front of their eyes.

Everyone is different and your ability to learn quicker than others is noticed, whether you feel it is or not. Get out there, do the jumps, show your stuff, and the path you choose will be accepted. But the DZ community looks after it's own as much as possible. When the people that you look up to tell you that it's not yet time, your best bet is to listen. They will only allow you to color outside the lines so far, because they ate tired of the predictable results of hubris.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[yvanpec 1]

Thank you all for your input.

See, I asked a question about the rig, and I kinda knew the answer, I needed that so I don't go and buy it.

BUT! I have just read the thread monkycndo linked in his post.......Now, how does someone can downsize from 190 to 129 without anyone at the DZ noticing ? Did they just allow it ? I am pretty sure I can look at a container and roughly know what's in there. a container with two 190s dont look the same as one with two 130s in it.

I am also pretty sure that the person in charge of the DZ here would inspect my gear thoroughly before letting me jump. And if they don't, that'd dissapoint me a little bit because I'd feel let down in some way. Just like if yall answered "damn right bought that 150 reserve".

Too much concern is not necessarily good, so is a lack of it.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[craddock 0]

I for one agree almost completely. Especially the point about prior experiences. Before I started jumping I had a strong background in sports that required fast hand eye coordination. I was a well accomplished motocross and snow-cross rider and could slide a streetbike around corners. High level skier both water and snow, ect and so on. The biggest thing is that I had put myself in situations where I had to make split second decisions and actions on numerous occasions. Fear is good/ Panic is bad.

I broke every rule and people tried to slow me down. Still it was the DZO himself with 10,000 jumps that sold me his 107 for my second canopy with 6 months experience. While that was a bit extreme and I would never recommend it the point is not everyone is the same. And if you are willing to take the chance on that reserve then that is on you and I would not get to fired up about getting flamed on here.

Just pound out the jumps and get experience. Demo your reserve if you want. Buy the rig and wait till you have 100 jumps or so to use it would be another option. Right now at your level jumping and learning are the most critical. You could have 100 jumps in no time and right now every jump counts

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[stayhigh 2]

I've got a Velo for sale that is smoking hot deal. It is on classified. $1000 bucks if you pick it up locally.

In US, atleast here in So-Cal, people go to neighbor dropzone to downsize super quick. I know several people who downsized in that manner.

They go to dz across the hill and jump whatever they've downsized to for around 100 jumps and they go back to their home dz, and when their SnTA gives them shit for downsizing too aggressively, the jumpers will tell them that they have been jumping smaller parachute for over hundred jumps.

They have set the recommendation according to the most uncoordinated person at the dz. I've seen handful of people riding x-brace at 500 jumps. Then again, I've seen more number of people nearly killing themselves with 150's and 170's. With modern science, people heal up quick.

Femur is not that big of a deal, in fact they are much better injury than smashed ankle or knee.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[yvanpec 1]

yup Craddock, I have spent a solid part of my life sitting on an engine or with something strapped to my feet. It definitely helps with reaction time and decision making. Especially surfing, where the decision making needs to be real quick and where foresight is also a must.

I read on here, because I read a lot, that one should never buy gear he plans on using some time down the road....?? Plus, looking at that beautiful rig sitting in a corner of my house, you know what will happen.....I'll jump it because it's right there....I know myself way to well. Buy a Hershey bar to a kid, put it right there and tell him not to touch it....yeah.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[yvanpec 1]

stayhigh

I've got a Velo for sale that is smoking hot deal. It is on classified. $1000 bucks if you pick it up locally.

999 and you've got a deal !

joking aside, I don't really see the point in lying about experience. For all I know I could have started this post by telling you guys I had 120 jumps and used to fly 168 all the time, and I would have had the convenient answer. Fact is, I did not.

Skydiving is like every other thing thats been practiced a while. Some will embrace change, gear evolution, thank the people who made a bold move. Some won't. I don't think there is any wrong in both.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[craddock 0]

I get what your saying about the gear taunting you sitting in the corner but since you indicated in your first post that you are not financially strapped, than you should have no problem pounding out jumps in short order. Can you do 6,7,8 a day on the weekend? Maybe tell your DZ not to allow you to jump it until signed off. They are also the ones that really can tell your skills vs this forum

When I bought that 107 I was not allowed to jump it right away. I was actually recovering from a broken ankle(tibial pilon) that I had surgery on. They made me jump a 150 first and work down to it. I did that in the first weekend back jumping and buy the next weekend they turned be loose. Now despite my limited time in the sport I was extremely current before my injury and the 8 weeks off. Point is I was held back a week and pounded jumps so if they have to hold you back for your own good for a month so be it.

If you are the way you think you are landing a 7 cell 150 reserve straight in with 80-100 jumps or less should be zero issues. I might get flamed now but so many go the others way that people forget that there ARE actually exceptions to the rule. But as said it is just finding out if you are without learning the hard way. But sometimes you just know who you are. Sometimes

But you have said everything right so far. The attitude, the approach, the logic, the questions even if you think you know the answers already. Just get some more jumps. Play with sinking approaches, toggle whip turns that you brake out of into a flat turn finish. Play around hard on the edge of stall. Past the edge. Have fun, be safe. Pound out the jumps and learn something on everyone.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[yvanpec 1]

Money is not an issue but time is. It's still cold and snowy here (can't wait to land on snow ) so one DZ opens back up in 2 weeks but only on week ends. Coming march I'll be able to pound 15 jumps a week easy as I will have 5 DZs within an hour and half drive to choose from.

I know I will get under something a bit larger for the first few jumps. The DZ is at around 1500 ft already so I wanna see how thinner air affects flight, and also, I have a traintrack (busy one), a powerplant and a fairly big river to deal with upon landing. Traintrack is about 150 ft away from landing zone

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[stayhigh 2]

Difference between surfing and skydiving is that in surfing having a wrong equipment doesn't kill you.

In skydiving having a wrong equipment may kill you.

If you have athleticism to surf, you'll pick up quick in skydiving. Skydiving is much easier than surfing and it takes way less time to get good. So take your time. In fact once you get good, just like surfing you'll start hating things. So enjoy the learning phase.

Just like surfing, you need to spend sometime on the fun board(135-170 sq ft), you can't just start riding shrot board(sub 99 ft) and get good.

Do you think you have rode your long board (190+ sq ft) enough and learned how to stand up and do a decent bottom turn consistently? If so, move on to a funboard.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[yvanpec 1]

stayhigh

Difference between surfing and skydiving is that in surfing having a wrong equipment doesn't kill you.

In skydiving having a wrong equipment may kill you.

If you have athleticism to surf, you'll pick up quick in skydiving. Skydiving is much easier than surfing and it takes way less time to get good. So take your time. In fact once you get good, just like surfing you'll start hating things. So enjoy the learning phase.

Just like surfing, you need to spend sometime on the fun board(135-170 sq ft), you can't just start riding shrot board(sub 99 ft) and get good.

Do you think you have rode your long board (190+ sq ft) enough and learned how to stand up and do a decent bottom turn consistently? If so, move on to a funboard.

an analogy that speaks to me ! thank you haha

Am I comfortable under my 190 ? not so much as I am with my 210 to be honest. Because I have more time under the 210. What is comfortable ? Jumping 4th, opening higher than everyone and still land first without any issue ?

then I guess I am comfortable. Does it make me better than anyone else ? Certainly not.

It does, however make me aware of what happens to my canopy when I pull either a brake or a riser. Keeping on pulling the brakes 3 inches to turn super safely will not teach me much. I just do all the more radical (to my level......so probably pussy stuff for most of you) manoevers at a high altitude.

Thing is I didnt try to land in whatever position. I opened , had fun, played with my toggles, played with my risers, and I ended down there quicker than anyone else (all students). We werent on a full load and i wasnt ever in traffic. When the sky was crowded, I waited for my turn to land and stuck to gentle toggle adjustments.

There were a couple German kids doing their AFF and A license. I think they jumped around 40 times in a week. Every 5 jumps, when asked when they'd pull, the number would be 500ft less than before. To me, THAT'S where the real danger is....wanting more freefall time and opening lower and lower. Good for them if they think they have time to deal with a mal that quickly after 40 jumps. I would never push limits with my pull altitude, but i'd push the limits of my 210 still gliding at 4000 ft because my instructor told me those canopies can be pushed without much risks.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[gowlerk 1,910]

Quote

To me, THAT'S where the real danger is....wanting more freefall time and opening lower and lower.

There is real danger lurking for those who don't maintain discipline in opening altitudes. But there many dangers in skydiving, and if you look through the incident reports you will find that the most popular way by far to hurt yourself is from a bad landing under a fully open main canopy.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[justme12001 0]

Just thought I would mention this, since you have brought up how uncomfortable the harness is a couple times.

The harness can be made more comfortable if you slide the leg straps from between your legs, to your thighs, more like you are sitting in the harness. This might help some, if you haven't tried it already.

[yvanpec 1]

gowlerk

to hurt yourself is from a bad landing under a fully open main canopy.

yes. it's one of the first things my instructor told me. you only successfully complete your skydive when you're back to the hangar....

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[yvanpec 1]

justme12001

Just thought I would mention this, since you have brought up how uncomfortable the harness is a couple times.

The harness can be made more comfortable if you slide the leg straps from between your legs, to your thighs, more like you are sitting in the harness. This might help some, if you haven't tried it already.

thx man I will definitely try that.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[sralston 0]

I am a larger jumper. My exit weight is around 285. The leg straps are a big issue for me. I went with a Racer from Jump Shack. It is the most comfortable rig you will every wear. The use a larger and stronger webbing. Also, the reserve opens faster. Since this is your first rig I would not think color was a big deal. A shadow racer is just plain black cost $1,500 new. You could then buy a new reserve or pick one up on the used market.

[yvanpec 1]

i usually have the opposite problem. most of the rigs are too large on the leg straps. i have chicken legs i guess.

apparently some guy at the new DZ here is a distributor for a few brands. i'll speak to him about my options.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.