Hard openings

[Mbo5128 0]

I'm a new skydiver ( around 100 jumps) and I have a Pisa Hornet 170 main canopy and am consistently having fast openings. My wing loading is 1.2 and I've tried adjusting how many rolls I put in the cone hoping to slow down the opening but not having much luck. The canopy and lines we're manufactured in 2001 but has less than 200 total jumps on canopy, and in excellent condition. Any suggestions? Will a larger slider slow down my openings? Any suggestions would be helpful.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Yes, a larger, or modified slider is the standard answer to this fairly common problem with Hornets. See your local rigger for suggestions.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Alexg3265 0]

I had a hornet 150 that opened like shit. Learn to psycho pack. And roll the nose in once you flip it and put it on the ground. Seriously. I'd grab the outer 4 nose cells from each side and roll them in tight towards the center. (4-5 hand rolls) you can even put the rolls into the center cell then gently push it under the front edge of the slider. That's the best I can describe it. It needs to be a neat pack job. I had a packer pack that canopy for me and I came down with a busted lip and bruises galore from that one. And/or have a rigger install a pocket on the slider. should be fairly cheap.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[chuckakers 370]

Contact the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer can say for sure whether modifications like slider size changes are safe. Some canopies behave well with mods, others don't.

BTW, your rigger is very likely not a canopy designer and thus probably not in the best position to modify your canopy. The manufacturer is in the best position to help you.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[peek 20]

Mbo5128

... I have a Pisa Hornet 170 main canopy and am consistently having fast openings. ... Will a larger slider slow down my openings?

(Of course, the first thing is to make sure your packing is done well.)

The Hornet, at least a certain generation/group of them, is known (in general) to open hard. (You may find some people that disagree with that if they have experienced Hornet's that don't.)

A larger slider (or pocket slider) may solve the problem. You might need to wait to hear from someone that has specific information about this. I think I have read a post to that affect here.

We know that it works for some canopies: http://www.pcprg.com/hardop.htm

[wasatchrider 0]

I have a hornet 170 that opens super slow I will trade you for your fast opening canopy...

BASE 1519

[airdrop 18]

I would try a pocket slider. I do them for around 50 bucks. Most jumpers prefer them over getting the large slider. Most of your canopy manufactures will say it's the way you pack them because they will not admit they have a bad canopy....ie PD with the Sabre 1.

[mcordell 2]

chuckakers

Contact the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer can say for sure whether modifications like slider size changes are safe. Some canopies behave well with mods, others don't.

BTW, your rigger is very likely not a canopy designer and thus probably not in the best position to modify your canopy. The manufacturer is in the best position to help you.

Not to mention technically a Senior rigger can't legally modify a canopy. I know....I know...riggers do it all the time....blah blah blah. That's why I said technically.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[keithbar 1]

damn I've been misled all these years always heard the old s*** you can make your own main canopy duct tape garbage bags and dental floss if you want. as long as the reserve was packed and inspected by a rigger

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[D22369 0]

Try a pocket slider at the very least, no reason to put up with hard openings.

I put a pocket slider on my arial 170 years ago, it helped a bit but I would still have the occasional slammer - the last one fractured two vertebre in my mid back then was sold, I couldn't take those openings

since then I had an oversized slider put on every canopy even my stiletto - yeah I know they have a rep for soft openings but after cracking bones I was a little apprehensive.

my FX opened hard and after the first month had an oversized slider made.

both give extremely soft and predictable openings. I don't remember the dimensions on the stiletto but the fx slider was I think 1 1/4" wider and 1" more front to back (offhand)


but do call and talk to the manufacturers - no need to be a test jumper if your smarter than I was I really should have called - but my rigger is much smarter than I am and may have done just that.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[mcordell 2]

keithbar

damn I've been misled all these years always heard the old s*** you can make your own main canopy duct tape garbage bags and dental floss if you want. as long as the reserve was packed and inspected by a rigger

Lol that's what a lot of people seem to think. Imagine my surprise when studying for the Senior Rigger test and I found out technically a senior rigger can't even swap standard links to soft links on a main. Obviously the rules aren't followed that closely....hell jumpers do more to their mains than a senior rigger is allowed to do...

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 370]

mcordell

***Contact the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer can say for sure whether modifications like slider size changes are safe. Some canopies behave well with mods, others don't.

BTW, your rigger is very likely not a canopy designer and thus probably not in the best position to modify your canopy. The manufacturer is in the best position to help you.

Not to mention technically a Senior rigger can't legally modify a canopy. I know....I know...riggers do it all the time....blah blah blah. That's why I said technically.

I may be incorrect but I don't think that applies to main canopies or other non-TSO'd components.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mcordell 2]

chuckakers

******Contact the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer can say for sure whether modifications like slider size changes are safe. Some canopies behave well with mods, others don't.

BTW, your rigger is very likely not a canopy designer and thus probably not in the best position to modify your canopy. The manufacturer is in the best position to help you.

Not to mention technically a Senior rigger can't legally modify a canopy. I know....I know...riggers do it all the time....blah blah blah. That's why I said technically.

I may be incorrect but I don't think that applies to main canopies or other non-TSO'd components.
it absolutely does. I don't like it any more than anyone else but only a master rigger, the manufacturer, or any manufacturer deemed competent by the FAA Administrator can alter a main canopy.

Edited to add the text of the law....

Quote

8-476 ALTERATION OF THE MAIN PARACHUTE.

A. Requirements for Main Parachute. The main parachute of a dual-parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping may be altered by a master parachute rigger, the manufacturer, or any other manufacturer the Administrator considers to be competent. The alterations are not required to be made in accordance with approved manuals and specifications (§ 65.125(c)). Master parachute riggers are not required to comply with §§ 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) when altering the main parachute.

B. Main Pack and Reserve Parachute Alterations. Any changes to the configuration, method of operation, method of packing the main parachute, including the main canopy attachment links or the male ends of the quick-release fittings, is a main pack alteration. Any main parachute alteration that affects the strength or operation of the reserve parachute, including the harness, must be regarded as an alteration of the reserve parachute and handled accordingly.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 370]

mcordell

*********Contact the manufacturer. Only the manufacturer can say for sure whether modifications like slider size changes are safe. Some canopies behave well with mods, others don't.

BTW, your rigger is very likely not a canopy designer and thus probably not in the best position to modify your canopy. The manufacturer is in the best position to help you.

Not to mention technically a Senior rigger can't legally modify a canopy. I know....I know...riggers do it all the time....blah blah blah. That's why I said technically.

I may be incorrect but I don't think that applies to main canopies or other non-TSO'd components.
it absolutely does. I don't like it any more than anyone else but only a master rigger, the manufacturer, or any manufacturer deemed competent by the FAA Administrator can alter a main canopy.

Edited to add the text of the law....

Quote

8-476 ALTERATION OF THE MAIN PARACHUTE.

A. Requirements for Main Parachute. The main parachute of a dual-parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping may be altered by a master parachute rigger, the manufacturer, or any other manufacturer the Administrator considers to be competent. The alterations are not required to be made in accordance with approved manuals and specifications (§ 65.125(c)). Master parachute riggers are not required to comply with §§ 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) when altering the main parachute.

B. Main Pack and Reserve Parachute Alterations. Any changes to the configuration, method of operation, method of packing the main parachute, including the main canopy attachment links or the male ends of the quick-release fittings, is a main pack alteration. Any main parachute alteration that affects the strength or operation of the reserve parachute, including the harness, must be regarded as an alteration of the reserve parachute and handled accordingly.

So I can design, build, and jump my own main canopy but if I want to alter it I need a rigger. Perfect. Or if I build my own main I am considered the manufacturer and therefore can alter it even though I may have no idea what I'm doing?

Does the FAA distinguish between a modification and alteration? Would a slider swap be considered an alteration? What if the manufacturer provides more than one slider with a main canopy from the factory? What about RDS systems? Are swoopers altering their canopies by removing the slider during flight?

I'd like to hear a fed's take on the above regulation. As usual, it seems a bit ambiguous.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[wmw999 2,116]

I have a feeling the idea behind this is that one might sell that owner-altered parachute to someone else. If you sell the parachute that you built to someone else, they're not going to expect it to fly like every other Stiletto (or whatever). But if you sell a Stiletto that you modified to have a smaller slider (for example), or you changed the pilot chute, it'll change the characteristics.

Or something like that. Frankly, it seems a little weak to me, but then (mumble mumble mumble) brake lines etc.
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mcordell 2]

chuckakers

Does the FAA distinguish between a modification and alteration? Would a slider swap be considered an alteration? What if the manufacturer provides more than one slider with a main canopy from the factory? What about RDS systems? Are swoopers altering their canopies by removing the slider during flight?

I'd like to hear a fed's take on the above regulation. As usual, it seems a bit ambiguous.

Since a slider swap is a change in the configuration I'm sure it would qualify as an alteration. I'm also sure if the manufacturer provides a slider that is intended to be split or removed or whatever then the use of it wouldn't constitute an alteration. Of course we have all made changes that are technically alterations anyway. I installed a collapsible pilot chute on mine (alteration) and soft links that were not provided by the manufacturer with the canopy (alteration). I know plenty of people, including senior riggers, that have replaced lower brake lines (major repair) when they weren't technically authorized to do so. I think as long as the rigger is competent and capable it's not a big deal. That doesn't make it legal...but a lot of things done on a regular basis in this sport aren't technically legal to do...

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 370]

wmw999

I have a feeling the idea behind this is that one might sell that owner-altered parachute to someone else. If you sell the parachute that you built to someone else, they're not going to expect it to fly like every other Stiletto (or whatever). But if you sell a Stiletto that you modified to have a smaller slider (for example), or you changed the pilot chute, it'll change the characteristics.

Or something like that. Frankly, it seems a little weak to me, but then (mumble mumble mumble) brake lines etc.
Wendy P.

I don't think we can guess the motivation behind any particular reg. The FAR's are filled with parts that have been changed, tweaked, removed, added, and twisted, often to patch a previous version.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

mcordell

***I think as long as the rigger is competent and capable it's not a big deal. That doesn't make it legal...but a lot of things done on a regular basis in this sport aren't technically legal to do...

Maybe to you and me, but I have yet to meet a fed that would agree with straying from regs.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Quagmirian 40]

chuckakers

So I can design, build, and jump my own main canopy but if I want to alter it I need a rigger. Perfect. Or if I build my own main I am considered the manufacturer and therefore can alter it even though I may have no idea what I'm doing?

[gowlerk 1,903]

Quote

Maybe to you and me, but I have yet to meet a fed that would agree with straying from regs.

Awesome, a Christmas day rehash of this age old argument about who can do what to a main canopy. After that maybe we can rehash the theological discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The reality is the it matters not one tiny bit what the regulations say if there is no enforcement of them. Please, anyone, cite one small example of any legal repercussions to anyone making any modifications to any main parachute at anytime, anywhere. No theoretical examples of what COULD happen, but real world examples of what DID happen. We live in the real world, not in an FAA circular.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[chuckakers 370]

gowlerk

Quote

Maybe to you and me, but I have yet to meet a fed that would agree with straying from regs.

Awesome, a Christmas day rehash of this age old argument about who can do what to a main canopy. After that maybe we can rehash the theological discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The reality is the it matters not one tiny bit what the regulations say if there is no enforcement of them. Please, anyone, cite one small example of any legal repercussions to anyone making any modifications to any main parachute at anytime, anywhere. No theoretical examples of what COULD happen, but real world examples of what DID happen. We live in the real world, not in an FAA circular.

I wasn't talking about enforcement actions. I simply said that every fed I've ever worked with stayed strictly with the FAR's to reach conclusions about any particular subject. As we know, there's often a mile-wide gap between FAR violations and enforcement actions.

BTW if you have something better to do than rehash age old arguments on Christmas day, knock yourself out.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gowlerk 1,903]

Quote

BTW if you have something better to do than rehash age old arguments on Christmas day, knock yourself out.

Just working next to the computer packing a reserve for a friend while my mother in law is cooking a turkey upstairs. Almost a normal day. BTW, this thread is about a low time jumper wondering how to slow his Hornet openings down. Everyone I know who has had this problem either got a larger slider, a pocket sewn on to their existing slider, or learned to live with the problem. I don't know of anyone who consulted Aerodyne about it though. They only offer a limited amount of support for these long discontinued PISA canopies anyway.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mcordell 2]

gowlerk

Awesome, a Christmas day rehash of this age old argument about who can do what to a main canopy.

So far I don't think there's been any argument...just a discussion. Like I already said...we all do it even though it's technically not allowed under regs. The great thing though is that participation in these discussions is not compulsory.

Even if something has been discussed ad nauseum that doesn't mean everyone knows and they aren't going to search for something they don't know to look for. The original poster got the suggestion of slider mods and swapping sliders. The OP should understand what is allowed under regarding and be able to make their own choices as to whether to violate a reg, enforced or othwrwise.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[megamalfunction 1]

You may want to reline the canopy; microline shrinks over time and can cause your canopy to open harder. Also, you might want to ask a rigger to show you how to pack. I haven't had a hard opening since going to my rigger and asking him to show me how to properly pack my main parachute. He showed me some tricks to keep the slider from coming off the stops that have been a lifesaver. The most important thing is keeping the slider on the stops.

edit: Aerodyne also put a slightly larger slider on my canopy when I sent it to them for the reline.

[megamalfunction 1]

This is from the Aerodyne packing manual:

"WARNING: IF THE SLIDER IS NOT AGAINST THE SLIDER STOPS, THE POSSIBILITY OF A HARD OPENING AND SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH IS SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED."