Low jumps - Camera Helmet

[tomleone 0]

Last year I jumped at an "Away" DZ with my camera helmet with an L bracket mounted on top. I was doing a 2 way with my brother and was just looking for some funny video to laugh at. We each had about 90 jumps and were breaking off at about 4500 for a 4000 or so opening.

I got attitude from a jumper on the plane saying I was being "wreckless" jumping a camera with only 90 jumps.

I haven't jumped the camera since, mostly because the opportunity hasn't presented itself, but I was planning to get into it a little more this season.

Was this person just being a Jerk, or is there a valid reason not to jump a camera with low jump #'s? I understand that any distraction could be dangerous, but is there anything more specific that I should know about?

Take risks not to escape life, but to prevent life from escaping ~ Author Unknown (but I wish I knew)

YouveGottaTryThis.com

[Jumpah 0]

Watch this movie:
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3706&string=camera%20entanglemen

[AndyMan 7]

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I got attitude from a jumper on the plane saying I was being "wreckless" jumping a camera with only 90 jumps.

Yup, that sounds about right.

Sorry, I know that's not the answer you were looking for.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Zenister 0]

no you were being reckless

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reck·less pronunciation
adj.

1.
1. Heedless or careless.
2. Headstrong; rash.
2. Indifferent to or disregardful of consequences: a reckless driver.

with a whole hour and a half of freefall time (roughly) do you really think you were prepared or aware of the possible consequences of having a HUGE snag hazard on your head? Are you so well trained and prepared that all of your pull sequence is down pat and rock stable? its your life, but few people enjoy saying 'i told you so' to someone who isnt around to listen any longer

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[BIGUN 1,050]

He now has 147 jumps... Enough to get a Coach rating and work with students, but would be considered "reckless" to learn to fly with a camera?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wildcard451 0]

I can't watch that viseo from where I am at work right now......but I am pretty sure it is piisfish's brush with death. I know you wanna be cool with the camera now and get the shots, but in all honestly, in the grand scheme of things, you barely know how to fly your body at this point, let alone having the complications of target fixation by "tryin gto get teh shot"

I added a camera to my head at about double the jumps you had.....still a bit early. After you go through a few things...ie, going low to get a shot and scaring the fuck out of yourself, getting some target fixation and getting creamed getting the shot, being preoccupied by getting all your camera stuff ready and forgetting to bring your altimeter on the plane, and turn your audible on....not that I really look at my atltimeter much now anyway, but I will if it doesn't feel right......but it has taken 600 jumps to get that "feel" for "Hey, I it seems like we've been in freefall a really long time, and that ground looks a little big......why the hell is that 4 way team still turning points....well I haven't heard a beep yet,....screw this I gotta look....."

After that long rambled thought, those are just a few of the mistakes I have made since putting that thing on my head, and I am sure there are plenty of other that I can't rememebr at the moment. And quite frankly, you figure out something a little different about it each jump, and I still don't think I have a real clue what is going on, but that's nothing that 10,000 jumps won't fix.

No one is trying to crack on you by telling you that 90 jumps is too soon for a camera. However, watch that video, read through Ron's "Stupid things I have done" thread. I am sure you will find a few camera related stories in there. After all that, if you are confident in your emergency procedures at this point to know that you know you will do what needs to be done.......and you are now ready to modify them for the steps needed to have a camera on your head......then by all means go right ahead and strap one on.

However, if that video made your balls crawl back into your stomach, or you aren't quite sure of all the EP changes you need to make, or you still think I am an asshole for telling you that you aren't really ready for a camera yet....then take a few more jumps (200 is the usual benchmark) to get to know your body in the air, and grab a friendly camera geek at the DZ and pick their brain. Remember, we're skydivers, we love to talk about the shit we do to anyone who will listen, so I am sure you can get pointers.

Ok....I think I have rambled enough now. Hopefully the mesage I wanted to get across came out somewhere in there.

[jsaxton 0]

Actually, I'm going to go against the convention here (flame away).

As mentioned in the previous post, there is a chance of entanglement, however at ~90 jumps you can probably pull stable
and I'm guessing that you're not flying a ring site so that probably helps a little, and after all camera flyers don't chop helmets or go in from that very often. So as long as you know that the risk exists, well, after all, I'll be fine

The distraction potential is much more of a risk IMHO, just try not to kill your friend and stay altitude aware.

Since your flying probably sucks at ~90 jumps you probably want a .03 lens so you get your friend on video at least occasionally during the jump.

YMMV
can I be on your ash dive?

[steveorino 7]

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He now has 147 jumps... Enough to get a Coach rating and work with students, but would be considered "reckless" to learn to fly with a camera?

Adding a camera adds a lot more than you'd think. I recommend the 200 as a bare minimum. Many tandem masters want you to have 500 minimum.

steveOrino

[jsaxton 0]

I think he's just talking about doing POV video with his friend

[BIGUN 1,050]

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Adding a camera adds a lot more than you'd think.

Perhaps it wasn't the camera so much as it was the L bracket. Would you have any objections to start doing RW with a side mount as a learning path with 147 jumps?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jsaxton 0]

I prefer top mount having had some nasty riser slaps

[icevideot 0]

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Since your flying probably sucks at ~90 jumps you probably want a .03 lens so you get your friend on video at least occasionally during the jump.

I 90 jumps I was far enough away that I should have used the zoom

Seriously though jsaxton is probably right here. The more likely danger is loosing awareness, either altitude or situational. The most dangerous times are going to be when things are going really good (great skydive cool sunset, etc) or when they are really weird like a funnel or freefall collision or whatever. At those times it can be hard for very experienced vidiots to remain aware of all the things going on and keep our internal clock functioning. There have been a lot of AAD fires to support this too. At 90 jumps there is no way your experience level has you equipped for this.

The other side of the coin is are you flying the camera or are you skydiving and just happen to have a camera running? If it is the latter then I am not sure you are being all that reckless.

The signs to tip you off as to which one you are would be things like how often does the camera angle shift suddenly as you read your alti? How often do you just scan the sky around you for people or things you may not have noticed? Do you check the spot in freefall? When I am being paid to video I strive to never move the camera away from the subject to do these things. Now I have learned to look around pretty hard without moving my head and sometimes I may fly a bit higher or adjust heading to look where I want but to an extent I am trusting those I am jumping with to be aware and listening for that little voice to tell me something is not right.

I can't advise you because I don't know you but I have seen people with far fewer jumps that I think were safe. I also know a few with 1000s of jumps you can't get me on a load with.

Screen your advice carefully and choose your actions. It is always more fun if noone gets hurt so good luck.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[steveorino 7]

Well, as we all know, we learn at different rates. there are guys that are capable of putting a camera on before 200, but not many. Learn to fly your slot -- It takes the average skydiver a good while to get to the point where he/she isn't constantly thinking about the camera.

L brackets have more snag points than RAWA and other self enclosed helmet. I lost an entire camera on a riser slap with just an L.

The top mounts are better for AFF & tandem video, but are a lot more cumberson and usually require a site (another snag point)

steveOrino

[pilotdave 0]

Well, I know you and I sure wouldn't call you reckless. But I can tell you that you wouldn't be allowed to jump a camera at CPI until you have 200 jumps. The SIM recommends 200 (and a C license) and has some good reasons.

Also, you'd really need to stay much more current to be safe with a camera. I know it's tough, but it's really a bad idea to add any complications to your jumps when you can only get in the air every few weeks or less often. And while it might not seem like it, the camera is a big complication.

And finally, make sure to get an experienced camera flyer to take a look at your setup if you haven't already. If your camera is exposed and able to snag lines, consider getting a cutaway for your helmet (or a better helmet altogether).

Coming out to CPI soon?

Dave

[BIGUN 1,050]

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I know it's tough, but it's really a bad idea to add any complications to your jumps when you can only get in the air every few weeks or less often.

OK... I'm there. I didn't even catch the 147/4 - currency's going to make me agree with everything said on here.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,116]

This is good advice from someone who knows you. Distractions are only a problem when other things are going wrong, because they limit your concentration on dealing with those things.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dharma1976 0]

I waited until I had like 500ish jumps maybe even more to get a camera helmet...I think that had more to do with my money going to my canopy aggression...

btw hes from the ranch read my sig line...

(so am I)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[damion75 0]

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Distractions are only a problem when other things are going wrong, because they limit your concentration on dealing with those things.

I'm not sure that I would agree with that - distractions (ie Camera flying potentially) can cause things to go wrong all by themselves. Particularly when the blinkers go on in order to focus on getting that cool shot even though you are "just recording your jump and not trying to really film anything"

The blinkers can cause you to fail to notice plenty of things including other jumpers and your altimeter...

It is just another risk. IMHO.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[billvon 2,384]

>is there a valid reason not to jump a camera with low jump #'s?

Yes. Two stories to illustrate why:

1) At about the 2000 jump mark, I built a chestmount camera to use during AFF. A bit later I took it on a bigway at Perris. At this point I was a decent bigway flyer - had a few state records, had a reputation of being a reliable late diver etc. Well, on the first jump I collided with someone, and the second jump I ended up in the wrong sector. Kate told me to get rid of the camera (which I did.) Why was I having a problem? Was it getting in my way? Nope, it just stayed on my chest; I didn't even have to aim it. Was it making the dive more complex? Nope - I just turned it on before exit and turned it off after I landed. It was just that I knew I had a camera on, and was thinking not only about my job on the skydive but about what the camera was seeing (which all camera flyers do.)

I made a bunch more jumps on the system (probably another 100 or so) and then took it to another bigway event. This time I was OK; I could handle the multitasking better. Since then I've taken a similar system on three world records and gotten some good pictures.

2) At Brown we did a demo one day into a golf course. It could not have been an easier demo. Wide open landing areas, low winds, clear day. We took people with at least a C license.

It was a scary thing to watch. A helicopter on the ground - perhaps 1/4 mile from the LZ - waited until everyone was under canopy before starting up, and didn't take off until well after the last person landed. But one jumper saw the rotor start to spin up and freaked out. He landed hard enough to break both his femurs; amazingly he was OK. (The wet grass had something to do with it.) Someone else landed into the only tree in a 500 foot radius of the target.

Why did they have so many problems? Was the area tight? No. Were there immediate hazards they were dodging? No. It was just that they had more things to pay attention to. There was a helicopter that had its rotor spinning! Oh no! And there's a tree! What do I do? I should avoid that . . . WHAP.

It wasn't that these people didn't have the basic skill to land in a big area - it's that there were distractions that they didn't have the experience to manage yet. Camera is like that as well.

I'd wait until you have 200-300 jumps, until you can do RW without worrying about whether you will get there or not, without worrying whether you can break off safely, without ever losing sight of the people on the dive. Once you can do that, then add the camera and do very simple skydives until that is second nature as well.

[Pulse 0]

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I'd wait until you have 200-300 jumps, until you can do RW without worrying about whether you will get there or not, without worrying whether you can break off safely, without ever losing sight of the people on the dive. Once you can do that, then add the camera and do very simple skydives until that is second nature as well.

DEFINITELY. I've always felt a MINIMUM requirement for camera-flying is to be able to be WHERE you want to be, WHEN you want to be there. This goes for freefall and canopy flight. The point where you can think about it and you're there.

Camera-flying was a bit different when I started. It was more specialized. As cameras got smaller and camera helmets became 'ready-made' more and more people got involved. Not that this is bad in itself. What is bad is that many of the dangers seem to have been forgotten, (or completely unrealized), and much of the 'art' has been lost. One thing I hear a lot from people asking me about getting into camera-flying is, "I don't want to do any 'high level' stuff. I just want to screw around." The fact is whether you're doing 'high level' work or screwing around, you still have a camera on you which can lead itself to new problems.

I know this is going to sound elitist, but I've come to the conclusion that there are camera-flyers, and then there's those who jump with cameras on their heads. It's easy to throw a super-wide lens on a small helmet. But the video sucks, and I see a lot of this a drop zones now. My question....why would anyone want to do that? (Now preparing to be flamed.)

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[DSE 3]

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I know this is going to sound elitist, but I've come to the conclusion that there are camera-flyers, and then there's those who jump with cameras on their heads. It's easy to throw a super-wide lens on a small helmet. But the video sucks, and I see a lot of this a drop zones now. My question....why would anyone want to do that? (Now preparing to be flamed.)

there are photographers and then there are people running around with point n' shoots, even if they're expensive point n' shoots.
Owning the gear doesn't mean one owns the talent. I don't see your statement as "elitist" at all. It's true.
To be a camera flier, you have to be able to see the shot before your body is there and then get your body to what your eye sees. Someday I'll be the cameraman in the air that I am on the ground, maybe in another few thousand jumps..I can see the shot, it's the getting there fast and smoothly that is the challenge.

[jumpr71 0]

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I got attitude from a jumper on the plane saying I was being "wreckless" jumping a camera with only 90 jumps.

Since you asked I dont think jumping a camera at 90 jumps is a very good idea but if you were at my DZ and I was on a plane with you I would not be the asshole giving you unsolicited advice. By the time you are in the plane it is too late anyway. What are you going to do at that point? Ride the plane down, jump without a helmet? Now you have 90 jumps with a camera on your head and a nagging doubt that some know it all asshole gave you because he could not keep his mouth shut. Gear fear on top of everything else now...great scenario. I wonder what he was hoping to accomplish other than being that guy who thinks his way is the only way. If he was really concerned he should have said someting to the S&TA, and the S&TA should have said something to you when you were on the ground. Unless he was the S&TA, in which case he was not doing a very good job. Bottom line... if you and your bro were doing a 2 way,pulling high, and not jumping with the person telling you you were reckless...it was none of his damn business. The only person you could hurt in that situation is yourself, and you signed the waiver. My two cents...I know it wont be a popular opinion, and I am sure I will catch hell for the way I worded it...oh well

---you should seriously consider removing yourself from the gene pool---

[tomleone 0]

Thanks all. I really didn't realize it was such a big deal. You could see from the video that I was the 1st example. My video was awful bc I was looking around too much, and my alti was on it more than my brother.

I appreciate you all sharing your opinions.

Dave, Aren't you in FL? I'll see you there this weekend.

Take risks not to escape life, but to prevent life from escaping ~ Author Unknown (but I wish I knew)

YouveGottaTryThis.com

[pilotdave 0]

Heading down thurs. See ya at lake wales!

Dave

[peckerhead 0]

In my opinion you should have a D license before jumping a camera. I did not strap a camera on to my head until I had 2000 jumps.

How many reserve rides have you had? Think about that....

No matter how much you try to justify it it still adds complexity to every jump.....

Is it on, how much tape do I have left, is my flash card full, how much battery do I have, did I tighten the thumb screw, and so on....

I see young jumpers walk out to the plane with the camera dialed in and their chest straps un done.

I have done gear checks on young jumpers with mis-routed bridles but their big concern was if the "light" was on.

Priorities people!