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mcordell

M2 vs vigil 2+

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I'm looking at replacing the cypres unit I sold with either a vigil 2+ or M2. Because the vigil unit has to have the battery replaced by the factory (which is supposed to be good for 2000 jumps) it looks like the more expensive of the two in spite of the 5 year difference in service life. The M2 says the battery lasts for up to 15,000 jumps but I couldn't find any information on the battery itself. Is it field replaceable? Does it also have to be replaced after 10 years like the vigil? What do you recommend and why?

ETA: Ok I do see that the battery is supposed to last the full 15 years without being changed. Either way I'm still interested to know if anyone has a good reason to go with one over the other.
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I got an m2 and im happy with it...i was going to go with the vigil but then found out they have to be sent overseas just to get the battery done...plus the m2 just goes for the 15 years no battery changes etc and only needs to be sent away if an error message comes up......but yeh only time will tell
FTMC

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padraigbrowne

Same here , have an M2 and am happy with it , no problems . Maars have a long and good record with AAD's before the M2



Not really... Last year in Poland:

Student jumper. 29 years old. Stabilized solo jump using a drogue (like a tandem, or some smoke jumper, or military jumper would use). Student pulled the cutaway handle instead of drogue release. Did not pull reserve (handle still in the pocket). MPAAD AAD (made by Mars company, maker of M2 AAD) activated, but the knife did not cut the loop (the knive was found touching the loop). Student hit a sports field at terminal velocity. After impact, the AAD was displaying the code E020, which means "cutter activation or error".

MPAAD bulletin:
http://www.marsjev.cz/editor/filestore/File/Bulletiny%20Anglicky/SB_no.09-10-2013_%20Interruption_Diving_EN.pdf

Unrelated M2 bulletin:
http://www.m2aad.com/download.php?group=download2_soubory&id=97

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I try to stay away from the brand wars ,but...

skez

Wasnt a mars m2



It's the same company... What difference does it make?

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.....and im pretty sure even cypress had problems in there early days



True... What you ( and many other jumpers ) fail to understand is that Airtec is about 200 000 units and 23 years further and they have never had a cutter failure. Unlike every other manufacturer.

It's OK to jump whatever you want and I'm fine with that. Just don't try to justify it with stupid arguments.

Cheers
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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Thanks for opening up this controversy again. Now I can enjoy watching all the posts from electronics "experts" and people trying to remember anecdotes and vague reports of incidents to justify their unshakable faith in their favorite brand of magic box that will save them from an unfortunate end.

Since you asked, I recommend you consider how long you will need this product for, and what your level of comfort is regarding the length of the track record of each product. As far as I'm concerned there are no AADs currently being marketed that I would have any concern at all about choosing for myself, or installing for a customer.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

Thanks for opening up this controversy again. Now I can enjoy watching all the posts from electronics "experts" and people trying to remember anecdotes and vague reports of incidents to justify their unshakable faith in their favorite brand of magic box that will save them from an unfortunate end.

Since you asked, I recommend you consider how long you will need this product for, and what your level of comfort is regarding the length of the track record of each product. As far as I'm concerned there are no AADs currently being marketed that I would have any concern at all about choosing for myself, or installing for a customer.



Assuming I live a long life I need it for as long as possible. I don't plan on quitting the sport. When I first started jumping I bought a cypres because so many people told me it was the only one worth considering. After having to take a break for a while due to financial considerations (divorce) I was on the verge of selling my gear but my (now) wife told me never to sell my gear because I would regret it. I sold my AAD to pay some bills and have been jumping without one for quite a while now. I am planning to buy one for my primary rig but I have two wings containers I alternate between and a third rig (vector) as a backup if I need to make back to back loads without packing. I only plan on putting an AAD in my primary rig I jump most.

I'm comfortable with something relatively new if the design is solid. Regardless of past models or cutter problems that aren't the same model of cutter, I am considering the M2 but really wanted to know if anyone had any information that wasn't opinion based as to why one would be better than the other. I will NOT be buying a cypres so explaining the virtues of cypres and how much better it is won't really answer my question.

My understanding is that the M2 cutter is completely redesigned and should not suffer from the same issues other cutters in the past have but I'm open to information one way or the other.

Thanks!
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Has the MPAAD been ungrounded?

Answered my own questions. Ungrounded with service by Mars to replace the cutter.
http://www.marsjev.cz/editor/filestore/File/Bulletiny%20Anglicky/SB_no.%2011-11-2013_Renewal_the_Diving_Performance_EN.pdf


Does the MPAAD and the M2 have the same cutter?

No, based on photos on web site. MPAAD cutter in photo is a cylindar. M2 cutter varies in diameter over the length of the cutter.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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skez

Just so everyone that doesnt already know this even the cypress has killed alot of ppl.......regardless of units made etc its still alot of ppl



The cypres or the user and parachute it attached to?

I don't know of an instance where a cypres failed to cut a loop (that was through the cutter) when the programed conditions were met.

Have people died wearing a cypres? Sure. When their reserve didn't open in time after being deployed, when someone mis-programmed the cypres, when they exceeded the firing criteria under an open canopy during a swoop landing.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Look it up....and mentioning one death with a MPAAD aad to try make the m2 look bad should be irrelevant is all im saying 2 different units.....i dont really care buy what u want i dont get a commission from these units sold but a low price aad might make the market better for all of us when they try and compete
FTMC

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that's my issue with the cypres. It has the lowest service life of any of the modern AADs with mandatory service every 4 years. Not only is it the most expensive AAD on the market but when you add in the service costs to the incredible purchase price it is significantly more expensive when broken down on a per year cost. I'm fine with either the M2 or the Vigil but I don't like the fact the vigil battery is not field replaceable. I suppose one service after 10 years isn't a big deal but the purchase price of the M2 is rather attractive.
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mcordell

that's my issue with the cypres. It has the lowest service life of any of the modern AADs with mandatory service every 4 years. Not only is it the most expensive AAD on the market but when you add in the service costs to the incredible purchase price it is significantly more expensive when broken down on a per year cost. I'm fine with either the M2 or the Vigil but I don't like the fact the vigil battery is not field replaceable. I suppose one service after 10 years isn't a big deal but the purchase price of the M2 is rather attractive.



by your logic the McLaren F1 is a piece of shit car that no one will ever want to buy

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likestojump

***that's my issue with the cypres. It has the lowest service life of any of the modern AADs with mandatory service every 4 years. Not only is it the most expensive AAD on the market but when you add in the service costs to the incredible purchase price it is significantly more expensive when broken down on a per year cost. I'm fine with either the M2 or the Vigil but I don't like the fact the vigil battery is not field replaceable. I suppose one service after 10 years isn't a big deal but the purchase price of the M2 is rather attractive.



by your logic the McLaren F1 is a piece of shit car that no one will ever want to buy

Thanks for your input. I'll take that into consideration if I'm ever in the market for a supercar. Can the owner not change the tire on one of those when it gets worn out?

That being said, my question pertained to two specific models of AAD. I didn't ask about the cypres or the McLaren F1 but your opinion has been duly noted in my logbook.
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mcordell

******that's my issue with the cypres. It has the lowest service life of any of the modern AADs with mandatory service every 4 years. Not only is it the most expensive AAD on the market but when you add in the service costs to the incredible purchase price it is significantly more expensive when broken down on a per year cost. I'm fine with either the M2 or the Vigil but I don't like the fact the vigil battery is not field replaceable. I suppose one service after 10 years isn't a big deal but the purchase price of the M2 is rather attractive.



by your logic the McLaren F1 is a piece of shit car that no one will ever want to buy

Thanks for your input. I'll take that into consideration if I'm ever in the market for a supercar. Can the owner not change the tire on one of those when it gets worn out?

That being said, my question pertained to two specific models of AAD. I didn't ask about the cypres or the McLaren F1 but your opinion has been duly noted in my logbook.

You related a high purchase price of something to it being undesirable. A very general statement that doesn't always prove true in real world. It's not uncommon to pay more for quality.

Why are Flight Concepts canopies cheaper than PD, but PD still has a very large chunk of the market ?

And no, the owner most likely cannot change a tire on the F1 if it gets worn out. It's upwards of $6K service, as both sides need to be changed. Link http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/car-culture/it-is-impossible-to-total-a-mclaren-f1

My point (which is obviously very lost) is that Cypres2 being expensive could be an indicator of quality/support rather than of just being overpriced.

At the end - M2, Cypres, Vigil AADs are approved in most containers and at probably all US Dropzones - so one is welcome to make their own choice.

When Argus was gaining steam it was priced super awesome and lots of people had your mentality of "it's priced attractively". Those are the same people who are now out ~~ $1K

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My point (which is obviously very lost) is that Cypres2 being expensive could be an indicator of quality/support rather than of just being overpriced.


When Argus was gaining steam it was priced super awesome and lots of people had your mentality of "it's priced attractively". Those are the same people who are now out ~~ $1K




Paul, your point was lost because you chose a very obtuse way of expressing it. But I would argue that Airtec IS overpricing their product. Their development costs were paid back long ago and they are coasting on their (deserved) reputation trying to keep the profit margin high for as long as possible. They even tried briefly to charge $200 for the software upgrade that allows mode switching. They dropped that, I assume in response to market objections.

Your point about the failure of the Argus is well noted. My feeling is that MarS, being a larger, more integrated company with a much larger line of products, would have the resources to weather the kind of storm that caused Karel to give up. But the risk of something similar happening can not be completely discounted. The M2 has a little more than 3 years in the field now. The Vigil has established itself completely in my opinion, a fine company with a fine track record.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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that's a good point and my primary concern with the M2. I don't want to buy it based on 3 years of a decent field record only to find out there are problems that weren't immediately apparent. The service life of the battery is drastically improved over the vigil battery, at least in terms of jump numbers, and I'm concerned there may be a certain degree of overconfidence in their product that isn't going to realistically work. That isn't necessarily a definitive reason to discount a product as being a viable competitor, especially in a product category where competition is seriously lacking. THAT is what allows the cypres to be kept at what I would consider an unreasonable price.

I want to be able to give the M2 some serious consideration and but don't want to take a risk that isn't calculated and well considered. I was hoping this larger group of jumpers and riggers may have some experience with both devices and could offer some input.
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The battery life is something I've wondered about. 15 years, or 15,000 jumps is a lot of time, 50% more than the Vigil. There would seem to be some conservation of energy in the control unit. It has no flashing lights and a much smaller display. The method of turning it on is the same as the others, and you can get similar information from it, but it is less easy to do so because of the smaller display only reading one digit at a time.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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piisfish

I already saw several Vigil II's with batteries going bad before 4 years :D:D:D




Anyone else? I've never heard of this. Not even once. But I have noticed that you are one of the people who believe that only a CYPRES is a worthy AAD. Care to back that up?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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The others are worthy, I just don't like the fire/non-fire parameters of the vigil for example. I also don't like the new adjustable parameters of the Cypres.

And the last case I had of flat battery, I have to resend it because they didn't pick it up at the mail.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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And the last case I had of flat battery, I have to resend it because they didn't pick it up at the mail.




I'm not sure about the service level you get in Europe. I'm assuming you would send it straight back to AAD in Belgium. In North America Vigil USA is basically run by UPT. You could hardly imagine getting better service than I have had from them. A wonderful company to deal with. Perhaps that colors my opinion of the product.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

The battery life is something I've wondered about. 15 years, or 15,000 jumps is a lot of time, 50% more than the Vigil.



It's worse than that. You are going off the mandatory replacement at 10 years but the battery info provided by vigil (off the top of my head) is "at least 5 years" or 2000 jumps but factory mandated at 10 years. I'm kind of concerned about that. The disparity between 2000 jumps and 15000 jumps is pretty significant and a lofty claim. That would make it by far the longest lasting battery of any AAD afaik
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