Too quick to cut away

[crotalus01 0]

my first (and only so far) cutaway was from linetwists on jump 52. I was on the sunset load, and by the time I opened at 4K the sun had set and it was pretty damn dark. I tried to kick out down to 2800', was getting absolutely nowhere and decided if I was going to chop for the first time I need some altitude to see how my reserve flew and flared. Maybe I could have fought it down to my decision altitude and gotten it taken care of but I hadnt gotten even one twist out in 1200' so I got rid of it.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[bigbearfng 18]

Hmmm, seems like newbs choppin for something they wouldn't chop for later on when they're more experienced is really nothing new...
Should of made a poll!

[riggerrob 632]

One percent of students cutaway, no matter what they have overhead.

[tbrown 26]

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I think the more people are educated about their gear, the less likely they are to cut away something they can reasonably work with.

But the low-experience jumpers really should err on the side of caution. We spend so much time telling them that they should respect their decision altitude, and the control check. The more experienced you are, the more flexible these rules are.

Newbies probably do cutaway more often than they should. HOWEVER a newbie with just around a hundred jumps was killed at Perris two years ago after trying to land a canopy with an unstowed brakeline. He appeared to be fine down to the last 200 ft and then suddenly spiralled out of the sky. And for that matter, a woman with over a thousand jumps was killed when she tried to land an elliptical with a hung up brakeline three years ago.

Either one of them could have lived, albeit with some razzing from the know-it-all brigade if they'd cutaway after a failed controllability check. Period.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[inyournavl 0]

I'm a newer jumper and fly a large canopy. I have not had what I consider a mal yet. I had line twists on my AFP1 but FJC had already taught me how to fix this, so I did. Since then I have line twists on 3 or 4 other jumps but I never thought of them as a mal. I also have had brake fires twice but with my big Spector they were not a problem either. Not all new jumpers know when to cut away. I saw a jumper with about the same number of jumps as me land hard in Florida because of a line over last January. This is a mal I would have cut myself.My FJC
instructor discussed a line over but was unclear if they should be cut or not. I believe a line over would most likely be a d line or a steering line, and if I didn't know which I wouldn't want to try a landing with a steering line being over so I would just cut it. Just my .02 cents If my thinking is wrong I'm sure I'm about to be straightened out

It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are.

[DougH 270]

Personally I would not land a line over. I might try to unstow the brakes and get it to clear, but there is no way I am going to try to bring her to final.

It might have a much higher descent rate then normal at you might not be able to tell this until to late to chop.

It might stall when you flare for landing, dropping you on your arse!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[HeatherB 0]

No, you're smart to think that way. A lineover is chop-worthy.

I've had one lineover. It spun the heck out of me and there was no doubt in my mind that it needed to be chopped. It wouldn't clear and wouldn't fly anywhere near straight not matter what I tried.

This was at a 1:1 wingloading on a pretty docile canopy.

[georgerussia 0]

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It has been my experience that in MOST cases a brake fire on a navigator 220 or a Sabre 190 is a minor inconvenience and not cause for a reserve ride.

This is correct - when you have 2,000 jumps you definitely know that a brake fire on such a canopy is most likely a minor inconvenience.
However when you have 19 jumps, and have a brake fire during your first jump on a rental Sabre 190 you never jumped before, things look different.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mdrejhon 8]

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I keep going back and forth on this in my head and I am not really sure where I stand at the moment. I wanted to get other people's opinions.

I had a brake fire under a Manta 288 as a student. That massive thing only started to turn slow, and by the time I noticed, I had already been unstowing the other brake that solved the problem instantly. It was so minor I subsequently forgot to tell the instructor that this even happened. I don't think he knows I ever had a brake fire as a student.

Obviously he knows about my linetwists as a student - that was WAY scarier as a student (no more than one or two twists though) and I kicked those out - and told the story. I repeated a jump jump due to pulling while still turning in a bellyfly.

[Inthebuff 0]

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This isn't to say any such 'trend' is to be ignored. But I've always wondered how much one can criticize if someone chops and lands safely. It's a blurred line.

I'm curious as to the orientation of the term 'brake fire'. It's always been known as an 'unstowed toggle' to me up until the past few years. Which is a much more descriptive term I must say. 'Brake fire' just makes things sound more impressive than they are. There is no fire involved. If there was, it would probably be called something else.

The terminology 'Brake Fire' doesn't immediately suggest an unstowed brake toggle to a novice.
Unstowed toggle says what it is.
I've had one 'brake fire' on my Sabre 2 190.This was caused by my slider fouling both my toggles after I collapsed it ( second jump on canopy,first time I'd collapsed the slider ) and in doing so releasing one brake.I always pull at 4k so I had lots of altitude .I was doing a slow right turn with one flapping toggle and the other obscured by the collapsed slider.I realised that the turn was being caused by having one toggle released so my decision process was to free the toggle obscured by the slider by my decision altitude of 2K or chop.I managed to pull the slider down right past the brakes and was able to release the other toggle.Once both toggles were in my hands I had level flight, I also managed to get the slider behind my neck,end of drama.I can understand a novice choosing to chop because they see the slow ( depending on the canopy ) turn left or right as an uncontrolled spin.Red silver I'm out of here.
I have learnt from this experience and I have to say that for a second the hairs stood up on the back of my neck because I knew that if I couldn't sort it it would be chop number one
I don't consider landing with one toggle stowed a safe act.
Good experience all the same.

I'm not entirely comfortable with collapsing the slider incase it happens again.
From what I've seen I know some sliders go behind the head and some stay collapsed in their original position so I'm asking the question,is it correct to collapse my slider,pull down over my brakes and put it behind my neck or leave it above my head ? ( if it will stay there )
If it doesn't stay there is there a fault ?
I asked an experienced packer who was packing my rig what he thought and he said just gently pull the collapsed slider down over the toggles and put it behind my head.
Thoughts please.

***********************************
Fly Like Zie Eagle, Not Like Zie Chicken !
Good advice from an instructor I know.

[Pulse 0]

"The terminology 'Brake Fire' doesn't immediately suggest an unstowed brake toggle to a novice.
Unstowed toggle says what it is."

I know - this is my point. Communication is about clarity, and for some reason we now have a term that doesn't describe shit. For humor's sake:

Line over - A line over the top of the canopy
Pilot Chute In Tow - Pilot chute in tow
Lost handle - Can't find your handle, it's lost
Two canopies out - Two canopies are....out
Line twists - lines are...uhm, twisted

Brake fire - Brake is.........on fire?
Unstowed brake - unstowed brake

I'll stop there.
So how did your slider 'foul' the toggles? Generally if you take care of the slider without any problems, none will develope during the canopy ride. Don't take this to heart though. I like to think anything can happen at any time.
What you do with your slider is personal preference. On very fast canopies an open slider makes a lot of noise and drag, that's why we collapse them. If you keep the slider at the top of the risers it will stay there. If it slides over the links slightly that's no problem. In fact it's probably better since it will put less wear on the lines.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[popsjumper 2]

Well, Oren it appears to me that you've got your answers. A severe lack of education is indicated by many of the posts.

- misinterpretation of terms
- terms "invented" and having no relation to the event
- confusing issues related to HP canopies vs LP canopies
- flying equipment they don't understand at all
- confusing student issues with experienced flyer issues

So what do you do?
Me? I'd say put 'em all back into the classroom and out of the sky until they can totally and completely and correctly demonstrate their knowledge of gear and EPs and basic canopy control without teaching input from the instructor.
Yeah, I'm a hard-ass.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 2]

Your point is well-taken: teach novices un-confusing terms. But let's keep some perspective. If you're taught what a term means, then you know what it means. Back when I was a student, a lineover was referred to as a "Mae West", and line twists were referred to as a "barber pole". None of us got the terms confused with a blond actress with huge tits or a hair stylist.

[Pulse 0]

Quote

Well, Oren it appears to me that you've got your answers. A severe lack of education is indicated by many of the posts.

- misinterpretation of terms
- terms "invented" and having no relation to the event
- confusing issues related to HP canopies vs LP canopies
- flying equipment they don't understand at all
- confusing student issues with experienced flyer issues

So what do you do?
Me? I'd say put 'em all back into the classroom and out of the sky until they can totally and completely and correctly demonstrate their knowledge of gear and EPs and basic canopy control without teaching input from the instructor.
Yeah, I'm a hard-ass.

AND A TONGUE-LASHING TO THE GOOD LOOKING ONES!

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Pulse 0]

Quote

Your point is well-taken: teach novices un-confusing terms. But let's keep some perspective. If you're taught what a term means, then you know what it means. Back when I was a student, a lineover was referred to as a "Mae West", and line twists were referred to as a "barber pole". None of us got the terms confused with a blond actress with huge tits or a hair stylist.

I understand what you're saying. You are also offering hope to me in that the examples you referenced have changed back to the more descriptive terms. So maybe in another 5-10 years the simple terms will be back? (Though perhaps it's more because a ram-air line-over doesn't remind anyone of boobs.)

It's part of an ongoing joke with me about how terms (not only skydiving) change almost as if to make things sound more intense than they are. "I had a BRAKE-FIRE....WHAAAAA!"
"My goodness, and you have very minimal scarring."

My favorite was when I showed up to the drop zone and someone told me so-and-so "bounced". But then followed up with, "He's expected to be in the hospital for about a week."
Whaaaa? Remember when bounce = dead?

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[DocJames 0]

***To me, the problem lies in prodding new jumpers to breakoff at 4.5 or 4, and deploy at 3, all while still having that 2500 decision height. If they follow their proceedure, they have little choice but to cutaway - and they're probably already below 2500.

[obelixtim 150]

You did fine......only you could have made the decision at the time, and you made the correct one.

Have no doubt about it.

Way to go.

And as for the beers.....thats out of the way...you can drink someone elses from now on to make up for it....

Plus you learnt a whole lot about decision making, the mechanics of a cutaway, and riding and landing a reserve. All of which adds to your experience level and will serve you well in the future.

You've also done something that a lot of people with more experience than you probably haven't done yet.....you found out how you react to an unusual situation....there's quite a few jumpers out there still wondering what it will be like....

Take some confidence from your experience.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[angrypeppers 1]

The chop was strange in a way for me. It was my first jump on a 230, and after a standup landing the 218 reserve, the 230 is no big deal! The reserve was a very good experience for me. Like you said, it boosted my confidence big time. Plus, I got the dreaded first one out of the way early. No matter if the next one is on the next jump or in ten thousand, I'll be much better prepared when it happens again. I can still hear the sound of the rings letting go! Thanks...

Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.

[piahenzi 0]

Premature Toggle Fire/Spinning XF Openings: I have the same problem on my XF2, 99 - the toggle fire causes a severe spin and sometimes ( as in last weekend) caused line twists - could not recover with harness and risers before it went there - managed to get out of the line twists but it was pretty hairy and I was close to chopping - AGAIN !! This happens a lot and I have new Sunpath risers and a new canopy. I check the brakes again right before stowing the risers into the container as the top tab does seem to slip out some during packing. I hate worrying every time it's pull time that I am going to end up in a dive/spin/mal on opening. Makes for stressful jumps. Anyone have any ideas?