Too quick to cut away

[okalb 78]

I keep going back and forth on this in my head and I am not really sure where I stand at the moment. I wanted to get other people's opinions.

Do you think people are too quick to cut away nowadays. I am referring to the stories that I keep hearing from lower experienced jumpers cutting away their 200+ sq ft, square planform, low performance canopies from spinning line twists and brake fires and such.

Before jumping high performance canopies I had MANY cases where I had line twists or premature brake fires. On every one of those occasions, I was able to kick out of the twists or unstow the other toggle and fly the parachute.

I am starting to think that newer jumpers hear so many stories about cutting away from line twists or brake fires from people flying high performance canopies, that they automatically see a few twists or a brake fire and think they need to chop. It has been my experience that in MOST cases a brake fire on a navigator 220 or a Sabre 190 is a minor inconvenience and not cause for a reserve ride. Same goes for line twists.

I am not trying to say that people should or shouldn't cut away. Obviously they are the person under the parachute not me and they are the one that has the life or death decision to make. It just seems strange to me that so many people are cutting away such large docile canopies for things like line twists and brake fires.

Those that know me, know that I have quite a few chops. So I am not preaching not to cut away. I hope this post doesn't sound condescending or preachy, if so that was not my intent. I am just seeing a trend that bothers me and I am curious what other people think about this.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[labrys 0]

My thoughts are that you'd have to compare the injury / fatality rate under slow mals to the rate of cutaways on slow mals to determine if the trend (if it is a trend) is good or bad.

Owned by Remi #?

[wmw999 2,121]

I think the more people are educated about their gear, the less likely they are to cut away something they can reasonably work with.

But the low-experience jumpers really should err on the side of caution. We spend so much time telling them that they should respect their decision altitude, and the control check. The more experienced you are, the more flexible these rules are. And when you consider how many more (unfamiliar) possibilities they have to consider, it makes it even more exciting.

So maybe the answer is to outlaw packers so that people get to be familiar with their gear again , or else maybe just having an informal gear class every now and then. Right now to get an A license they have to pack their main and jump it once. That's not a whole lot of gear knowledge.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[okalb 78]

Quote

I think the more people are educated about their gear, the less likely they are to cut away something they can reasonably work with.

To some extent I agree, but I didn't start packing for myself until I had around 300 jumps and I didn't know much about gear until then.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I was taught that line twists were a situation to deal with not necessarily a malfunction. I hear so many people these days referring to line twists and brake fires as mals.

Again, I am not sure what the problem is or if there is even a problem, just starting the discussion to see where it goes.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[AdD 1]

I love to see fast cutaways, especially when it's one of your students having a malfunction. There aren't many ppl dying from reserve mals with clean chops to my knowledge. My only mal was a blowout of a cell when I had low #'s, it wasn't even spinning. I'm really glad I did EPs without f'n around in that case. I don't like the alternative of waiting too long with spinning stuff either, I've come out of line twists low enough that I probably should have chopped. Not a good time.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[Butters 0]

We have a safety day to review safety. How about a gear day to review gear? A rigger could walk through the different parts of a rig explaining what it is, what it does, etc...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[okalb 78]

Quote

We have a safety day to review safety. How about a gear day to review gear? A rigger could walk through the different parts of a rig explaining what it is, what it does, etc...

I don't know about everywhere else, but we do that on safety day. One of our riggers usually tampers with a rig and messes up a bunch of stuff then asks a newer jumper to give it a gear check. She will then go over the rig in detail with everyone there.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[darkwing 4]

I guess my quick response is "Do we have more people bouncing because they cut away, or because they didn't?"

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

You know, it's odd to see a post like this, I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but it's a lose/lose situation.

Put these recent stories of cutaways with a bad outcome and what would this thread say:

"Why aren't the noobs chopping when they have a mal"

I completely agree with you though on the topic. I think new jumpers need to know alot more about their gear before they are getting their A's. I learnt most of my gear knowledge by reading books, reading the forums etc. Jumpers are only really taught basic gear knowledge...here are the parts, these 2 handles are what you need to know, make sure the cypress is on.

I mean I got alot more than that at my DZ, but i've seen other jumpers that scared me about how little they knew about the gear. I was jumping with 2 jumpers from another DZ. They each had around 50 jumps and were renting gear. They were given gear with a collapsible slider and PC. Neither of them knew what they were, let alone how to use them (Thank god they were shown quickly). I thought for sure one of them would forget to uncollapse the slider, or cock the PC.

So, I agree that more needs to be taught about the gear and when to chop or not, but it can't be "just enough" so they think they can save it and pound in. It has to be extensive knowledge so they can realize that, ok, i'm in a spin, altitude is on, oh look a lineover, riser tug, flare, no go, ching ching. I think that gear knowledge and experience is the answer. You have to be concious enough to assess the situation, plus know what you're looking at and make a choice.

I don't think it's a bad thing to see new people chopping. I did it myself on jump 31. I had a tension knot on my leftmost B line holding it to the second B line in. Basically the left end cell was folded under itself. The canopy was in a turn, toggle was held at my hip to stop the turn. I was able to steer the canopy by only doing left turns, but I felt I would have at least broken something on my lower body so I chopped. I'm glad I did and it all worked out.

Anyways, that's my opinion. We must be looking at both sides, we don't want to tell noobs to chop right away but we also don't want them to think they can save it.

Chris

EDIT: FYI, I still consider myself a noob, but I feel that I have a fairly good knowledge of my gear. I feel comfortable thta I will be able to assess the situation properly should I have the need again.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Remster 24]

Quote

Do you think people are too quick to cut away nowadays. I am referring to the stories that I keep hearing from lower experienced jumpers cutting away their 200+ sq ft, square planform, low performance canopies from spinning line twists and brake fires and such.

Well, 1st, we need to see if this is really a nowaday issue. With the internet, we know of a lot more in incidents and reports of the likes. Are you sure its a bigger issue now then it was 10 or 15 years ago?

Remster

[billvon 2,400]

Over the 16 years I've been in this sport - no, not really. Newer jumpers often cut away too often. Some jumpers fail to cut away when they really need to, or do so too low. Hasn't changed appreciably as far as I can tell.

[okalb 78]

Quote

Well, 1st, we need to see if this is really a nowaday issue. With the internet, we know of a lot more in incidents and reports of the likes. Are you sure its a bigger issue now then it was 10 or 15 years ago?

Actually as I said in a previous post, I am not sure it is an issue at all. I just notice a lot more people cutting away now from things that were considered no big deal a few years ago. It is just my own personal observation and very well could be completely false. That is why I started this tread. I wanted to see what other people thought.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[dharma1976 0]

I have brake fires all the time on my crossfire2 loaded at about 1.8-1.9 depending on beer weight...

it is certainly fun....takes off at the groudn really quick and then I usually keep it from going bad by correcting with a combo of harness and rear riser while I figure it all out...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

It has been my experience that in MOST cases a brake fire on a navigator 220 or a Sabre 190 is a minor inconvenience and not cause for a reserve ride. Same goes for line twists.

I am not trying to say that people should or shouldn't cut away. Obviously they are the person under the parachute not me and they are the one that has the life or death decision to make. It just seems strange to me that so many people are cutting away such large docile canopies for things like line twists and brake fires.

The first time you encounter a break fire, it doesn't seem all that docile. Mine came from a riser striking the face, so I got a good smacking, then opened into a pretty good spiral dive. I was able to arrest it with the opposite rear riser, but I can easily see people cutting away. It's different than usual, and not in a good way. After the first time, it's much more recognizable for what it is.

To me, the problem lies in prodding new jumpers to breakoff at 4.5 or 4, and deploy at 3, all while still having that 2500 decision height. If they follow their proceedure, they have little choice but to cutaway - and they're probably already below 2500.

[okalb 78]

Quote

I have brake fires all the time on my crossfire2 loaded at about 1.8-1.9 depending on beer weight...

it is certainly fun....takes off at the groudn really quick and then I usually keep it from going bad by correcting with a combo of harness and rear riser while I figure it all out...

Dave

That was exactly my point. I have had brake fires on my velo loaded over 2-1 and not had to chop it. Thats why I find it odd that people under lightly loaded docile canopies are chopping brake fires.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[okalb 78]

Quote

To me, the problem lies in prodding new jumpers to breakoff at 4.5 or 4, and deploy at 3, all while still having that 2500 decision height. If they follow their proceedure, they have little choice but to cutaway - and they're probably already below 2500

Very interesting point!

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[diablopilot 2]

Do newer jumpers cutaway to easily? Yes.

Is it a problem? Not really.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have one in my history.

I had less than 4 hours sleep for 2 nights in a row.
It was jump #32, a 2000m jump. I had a clean opening. I saw something wrong or unusual and I cut it away. I had not seen a reserve before. I had my first ride on PZ-81, triangular reserve. It is a steerable reserve, but I failed to find the toggles. It has a single risers and grey toggles on grey risers. I almost landed on a raw of trees, but I used mind control to steer it.

My instructor asked what was wrong and I did cut it away after 1 minutes of flight. I got grounded until the end of season. It was end of season for me anyway.

Lessons learnt:
-get enough rest, do not jump if you are zombi
-know your equipment

I had 2 total, high speed mal next season, so that first experience was a kindda handy.

[jbanning 0]

Packing your own main will give a person a pretty good idea on how it all works. I have packed my last 3 jumps!

[angrypeppers 1]

Interesting question, and timely for me, as I had my first chop a week ago on jump 13. I posted a write up already, but basically, my left toggle was tied in place and I couldn't get it loose. I've been beating myself up over this ever since, but have decided that I did the right thing for me and my experience level. This was my first jump on a 230 (Sabre2), and my first with a non-student rig. However, I don't have a lot of canopy time, I have never landed on the risers before, and didn't really want to make this my first time. I had time to play around a little bit to try to pop the toggle, but nothing worked (it was still tied in place when the main was retrieved), so I cutaway.

I've had people tell me that having a controllable (even only on the risers) canopy is much better that risking a reserve mal. Others told me that if I wasn't comfortable trying a riser landing, then chopping was the right thing to do. I didn't, so I did. Maybe I'm too conservative right now (probably true), but I didn't get hurt, the canopy was retrieved and is useable, and I'm a little more experienced now. I'm happy with my decision on this jump. Actually, I'm happy that I decided on a plan of action and followed through on it, even if I had to cutaway. I'm NOT happy with all the beer I had to buy though! Cost me a jump!

Bottom line for me is that if something similar happens again, I'll decide what to do then. But I'm still extremely new to skydiving, and I'd rather be too cautious. I probably could have landed safely on the risers, but why risk it? I figured that the chances of getting hurt from a riser landing was greater than a reserve ride injury. But now, I'm going to practice riser turns every jump till I'm comfortable with them. Might not make a difference if I have a problem on the next jump, but it probably will if I have a problem in ten jumps.

Chris

Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.

[skytash 0]

I know this point of view will be controversial - flame away if you want to!

My suspicion is that this is in part to do with the speed that people learn at these days. I'm not knocking AFF, in fact I did AFF after 14 or so SL jumps. I also believe currency is a big factor in learning, so doing 3 AFF levels in a day is a good thing for freefall skills.

HOWEVER - it reduces the tacit learning from hanging out at the bar or bonfire and the number of canopy descents people make. Sure, there is high confidence in freefall skills, but likely to be lower confidence levels around canopy skills leading to people being more nervous and more likely to cut away. Canopy skills is one of the areas some AFF instructors don't spend as much time on as they could (obviously not all!). In the FJC people learn the basics. On the level 2 briefing, they are taught stuff around freefall skills. How many instructors go over canopy things during AFF after the FJC?

The USPA ISP and the Canopy Handling requirements in the UK will help towards that kind of thing, however I wonder whether more canopy briefing during AFF may provide people with greater confidence around their canopies earlier on.

I should add - I cut away on my 14th jump after my spring loaded pilot chute fell over the front of the canopy and when I did my control checks, turned my main into a bow-tie when I flared. I'd never heard of this kind of thing before, but decided the main was not big, square and controllable and cut-away. So I'm one of the people who cut-away early in my career too and that was 9 years ago. Billvon is probably right, it's always been like this some just notice it more than others and at different times.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[pinkfairy 0]

Well, I have my own things that I'll do in case of different situations and mals, based on what I learned from my instructors. If anyone tries to critisize me for cutting away something I didn't want to land, then I'll tell them that it's my decision and that's that.

And I'd cut away a toggles fire. I've only flown student's gear and rentals, and I'm not familiar enough with that gear to know that I can land it on risers, and I'm not gonna experiment with that when I don't have my toggles as a backup. If it was my own canopy, and I was very familiar with it, and I'd tried before to land on risers and knew I could do it, then sure. But not on unfamilar rental gear that I don't know the riser stall point of.

But this is just what I'd do.

And I've had things that have looked a little funny over my head. ("Why does this thing always open with collapsed end cells", "Oh, line twists that make risers cross in front of my face!" "Can't get PC out, I'll try again, then EP's). But I haven't had to use my reserve yet.

I've seen quite a lot of cutaways, and I'm sure those jumpers were OK because they chose to cutaway. If jumper lands safely under reserve after toggles fire, then all's good, isn't it?

I'm just thinking that statistically, my chances of a safe landing under a slow mal are pretty small, and that my chances with the reserve if I cutaway at reasonable altitude are close to 100%.

Just my humble opinions, but I'm just a n00b.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[tdog 0]

Quote

I have brake fires all the time on my crossfire2 loaded at about 1.8-1.9 depending on beer weight...

Dave

Wow, then you need new risers or something... I have had 1 brake fire in 650 jumps on my last two sets of UPT risers... I just would not want someone just getting off student status to read this post and think, "I have brake fires all the time too" and think it is normal. From the risks associated with uncontrolled/offheading openings in a large group skydive to a brake fire mixed with line twists, clearly brake fires do add unneeded risks (in my opinion).

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I just thought of another point....

Who's going to supply the DZ with beer if none of the noobs are cutting away "landable" canopies? More firsts make a DZ go round...

And another note, no way to make your rigger happier than a nice bottle of (Insert riggers favourite "bottle"). Plus a repack? It's putting money back into the sport.



And now....a word from our Safety officer, "Slicey" the AAD!

Hey kids, don't chop just to buy beer and make friends at the dz! And remember to turn me on before going on a jump, look for the zero down!

Haha, can anyone tell I'm bored at work?

Later

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Fast 0]

Quote

Well, I have my own things that I'll do in case of different situations and mals, based on what I learned from my instructors. If anyone tries to critisize me for cutting away something I didn't want to land, then I'll tell them that it's my decision and that's that.

And I'd cut away a toggles fire. I've only flown student's gear and rentals, and I'm not familiar enough with that gear to know that I can land it on risers, and I'm not gonna experiment with that when I don't have my toggles as a backup. If it was my own canopy, and I was very familiar with it, and I'd tried before to land on risers and knew I could do it, then sure. But not on unfamilar rental gear that I don't know the riser stall point of.

But this is just what I'd do.
...

I'm just thinking that statistically, my chances of a safe landing under a slow mal are pretty small, and that my chances with the reserve if I cutaway at reasonable altitude are close to 100%.

Just my humble opinions, but I'm just a n00b.

I am not meaning to single you out, but I have heard this before so I am just using it as an example. Brake fire cutaways were pretty prevelant at my DZ last year and I didn't really understand why. I think it just comes down to people being only able to take in so much information at once.

If you have a brake fire, you don't have to land on rears, you just have to release the other brake. If you don't have line twists you can just unstow the other brake and the canopy will start flying straight again. You might just not know what people mean by brake fire though.


You are absolutely right, landing any kind of mal is a BAD decision. But, your reserve and rigger are fallible. I am not trying to encourage you or anyone else to not cut away, just to take time to understand different malfunctions and the things you can do to deal with them depending on what altitude you are at.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka