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drudchen

Reserve repack verification idea

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Just a thought - I was wondering - why don't rigs have a transparent window (similar to cypres one) in the reserve tray, accessible only behind the rigger's seal, that would have repack date written on it? It would solve pencil packing issue. To change it, seal needs to be broken (as opposed to current way of signing the packing card), but can be viewed through a transparent window any time

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I think it would add work to a rig that is already labor intensive and people aren't asking for it. I know I certainly wouldn't pay for it and I'm really not sure how much of a problem pencil packing really is. I'm sure people do it but who really knows how prevalent it is. I don't think that would happen unless the FAA mandated it as part of the seal process.
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mcordell

I think it would add work to a rig that is already labor intensive and people aren't asking for it. I know I certainly wouldn't pay for it and I'm really not sure how much of a problem pencil packing really is. I'm sure people do it but who really knows how prevalent it is. I don't think that would happen unless the FAA mandated it as part of the seal process.



People are not asking for it but it is a problem to riggers. You are putting there name on something they didn't do when you pencil whip it and taking money out of their pockets. Happened around here lately where somebody was trying to pencil pack their own reserve. A lot of them now get stamps made and let it be known that unless their seal number is stamped on the repack card it not good but not every DZ in the country would know this.

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I agree it is a problem for riggers, but since riggers don't buy the gear their customers bring them, the rig manufacturer would have to include it on all their rigs which either raises their price (even slightly) or gives them more work to do for the same money. Where does the rig manufacturer benefit in this process?
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Several countries require two packing data cards.
The first card is easily accessible form the outside, as per normal.
The second packing data card is stuffed in a second pocket, deep inside the reserve container and can only be accessed after the reserve is partially deployed.

Nice idea about adding a window to look at the second packing data card.

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aulanov

Because nobody would buy a rig that you can't pencil-pack! :)



.................................................................................

I don't care if they pencil-pack because I get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.

It does not matter if I was out of the country or in hospital, I expect to get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.
If they refuse to pay, I quietly hand them their reserve. Then I hand them their reserve ripcord.
Then I hand them their free-bag.
Then I hand them their reserve packing data card with an ugly black line obscuring any erroneous dates.

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drudchen

Just a thought - I was wondering - why don't rigs have a transparent window (similar to cypres one) in the reserve tray, accessible only behind the rigger's seal, that would have repack date written on it? It would solve pencil packing issue. To change it, seal needs to be broken (as opposed to current way of signing the packing card), but can be viewed through a transparent window any time



What's old is new again. TSO-C23b/NAS-804 effective 29 March 1962:

"4.2.4 Inspection Data Pocket: Each parachute outfit shall be provided with an inner and an outer pocket for keeping a record card . . . If the inner record card can be read from the outside of the pack because of the use of transparent materials, only the inner pocket need be provided."

Nowadays the AAD pocket can serve as the required inner pocket on C23b systems like Vector, Racer, and Mirage.

Mark

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huh. Interesting, Mark. I was taught that the internal pocket (on rigs that had them, like Vector 2's and older Vector 3's was to store "previous" data cards. I've never seen it stated nor implied that we are to keep an additional current packing card inside the reserve container. Granted, I've only been rigging for a piddly 11 years, haha.

I don't really see pencil-packing as a 'problem.' I see it as tacky, to be sure, and it's always people with a strong feeling of entitlement who do it, as it seems. I sort of take it for granted that a certain percentage of jumpers are going to pencil, and I pack every rig knowing that it may not see the inside of a loft again until the reserve has been used, even if that's YEARS from now.

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Actually, I think that riggers are the worst about it with their own gear. Whenever you see an ad that says "rigger owned and maintained" you know it only has half the pack jobs shown on the card. It was even worse when the repack cycle was 120 days. Every rigger out there knew that their own gear didn't need to be repacked every 4 months.

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stayhigh

Horrible idea, why do you want to add more rules?

It's your own gear, your own last parachute, you decide.

Almost absurd as a mandatory AAD.



But its the rigger's reputation and liability when you go in on a rig that's got a problem because it was not ACTUALLY inspected/packed by that person when the PDC says.

If you're going to pencil whip it, leave my name, number, seal out of it.

J
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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jimjumper

Actually, I think that riggers are the worst about it with their own gear. Whenever you see an ad that says "rigger owned and maintained" you know it only has half the pack jobs shown on the card. It was even worse when the repack cycle was 120 days. Every rigger out there knew that their own gear didn't need to be repacked every 4 months.



Can't speak for anyone but myself... but when I started rigging I decided that this is a slippery slope that I didn't want to go down...

My reputation is not only what I do for/to other's rigs, and what they see (or don't see) me let slide by... but its how I approach EVERY decision on rigging... even on my own stuff.

Maybe I'm the only rigger that's ever done it, but I've left the DZ on a beautiful morning and driven the 1.5hr back home to repack my own reserve because it was a few days out. My oversight, my integrity, my problem. Was there a simple (unethical) fix, sure. Was there likely to be any issue with the rig? Nope. Would anyone else be affected by my using the rig a few days out? Unlikely. But it would mean that my ethics are flexible.

What about my buddy's rig that's just a few days out... I know he babies his rig. I know its fine, and this'll be his only day for months...

Where do you stop bending the rules?
What do people know about you when you start bending?
Do they trust that you only bend some rules? Or are you willing to bend others that are inconvenient? At what point do they stop trusting you 100%?

The answer for me was simple... do it right every time. Start with your own gear. Be known for it. If you're known for it, they won't ask you to bend for them... so no temptation.

Besides, if they see that you're OK with bending rules, why shouldn't they help you by bending it with your name attached?

Might I loose a customer that way, well... haven't yet. And frankly, that kind of customer is unwelcome in my shop.

Just my $.02.
JW

PS - yes, I like this idea (window to see the PDC from within) but I am skeptical that it will come to pass unless the mfg's decide its in their financial or liability interest to do it.
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I'm on board with Rob on this one.

Use my name all you want. You can have your gear back when it's all paid up. Packjobs that "I did" but didn't have to invest and time/work...bonus for me. Fact is, people will pay to get their gear back. Will I lose a customer, probably. Frankly, I'm not interested in retaining people that would forge my name/signature anyways and there's usually a pretty small group of local riggers, and we generally all talk. I'm sure some would disagree, but that's my policy, and I do verify rigs against my logbook.

This being said, as a rigger there are a few things you can do. Personally, my date stamp and seal # is "stamped" instead of written. I'll know which one you faked unless you went through the effort to get the same stamp. One of the local rigger here also had a stamp made with his signature. That's pretty hard to fake.


BTW...I really like the idea Dmitry! It would be very good. Even abolish the repack card on the external of the rig, only one in this window even?
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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drudchen

Just a thought - I was wondering - why don't rigs have a transparent window (similar to cypres one) in the reserve tray, accessible only behind the rigger's seal, that would have repack date written on it? It would solve pencil packing issue. To change it, seal needs to be broken (as opposed to current way of signing the packing card), but can be viewed through a transparent window any time



Good idea. My only comment would be that this would have to be a separate date display, and NOT the repack card itself. Because many people want to see the repack card in between repacks. Like when you go visit a new DZ, when an FAA official wants to ramp check you, when you fill out a new waiver at your regular DZ, and so on. So you can't hinder access to the official repack card.

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I had a rig come through during one of our fall boogie events back in the 80's. As we were tagging rigs I noticed on one rig that I had packed three years before had magically been packed by me many times over without me touching it. Where is that magic wand when you need it during those long nights in the loft? The jumper was given the option of paying for six pencil packs plus a "legal" repack...........an ugly scene developed and cops called. The responding officer was one of our regular jumpers and a rigger who gave the jumper the option of being criminally charged with theft of services, etc., etc., or pay up. The jumper told us to F off and left his rig behind..............could never figure that one out - surrendering a $1,500.00 value rig for a $180.00 balance due o0r trying to work something out like "I am sorry & will never do it again......here is $30 for a repack". A rigger friend of mine (RIP) used to simply permanently ground any reserve that came to him pencil packed with his name and seal intack.
www.geronimoskydiving.com

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I simply send pictures of there reserve being packed at various check stages. This includes for PD reserves showing the data panel correctly marked.

My pet peeve is riggers not marking the panel. Whether intentional or not it should be done as per manufacturer instructions. Seeing this not done leads me to the conclusion the rigger is not following instructions or has paper packed it.

Additional items in the pack job only available when rig is unpacked doesn't stop people paper packing a reserve.

I believe a modified pocket only accessible from the inside but visible to the outside is a great idea.

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riggerrob

***Because nobody would buy a rig that you can't pencil-pack! :)



.................................................................................

I don't care if they pencil-pack because I get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.

It does not matter if I was out of the country or in hospital, I expect to get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.
If they refuse to pay, I quietly hand them their reserve. Then I hand them their reserve ripcord.
Then I hand them their free-bag.
Then I hand them their reserve packing data card with an ugly black line obscuring any erroneous dates.

So you don't care as long as you get paid. That's fucked up.
Reminds me of the joke about the guy that ask the girl if she would have sex with him for a million dollars and she say yes. Then he asks her if she would have sex with him for ten dollars and she says no, what kind of girl do you think I am? The guy says we already determined that, now we're just quibbling over price.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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DBCOOPER

******Because nobody would buy a rig that you can't pencil-pack! :)



.................................................................................

I don't care if they pencil-pack because I get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.

It does not matter if I was out of the country or in hospital, I expect to get paid every time my name appears on their packing data card.
If they refuse to pay, I quietly hand them their reserve. Then I hand them their reserve ripcord.
Then I hand them their free-bag.
Then I hand them their reserve packing data card with an ugly black line obscuring any erroneous dates.

So you don't care as long as you get paid. That's fucked up.
Reminds me of the joke about ...

...............................................................................

You missed my flippant sense of humor.

A long time ago, I quit getting angry or excited about pencil-packers because I know that karma will get them in the end.
e.g. they have a reserve ride during a boogie, but I am the only rigger available, but they forged my signature and I have to chose between them or a long of tandem students.

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The last reserve I have packed, I have used my iPhone and took several pictures of the reserve being packed That registers the location and the date of the packing. The idea was to show the owner the work done but reading this thread gave me the idea that taking a picture (which include date and location) can be used as a proof the packing has been really done.
BTW, I am a rigger and my reserve is due. I didn't have the time to pack it this week therefore no jumps this weekend for me.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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