100 jump wonders/coaches

[HeatherB 0]

Ditto. Better safe than sorry.

Maybe the jumper doesn't know how to shorten a loop or close a rig so he brushed off the issue to save face too.

[bigbearfng 9]

I'd say the minimum should be 500 but most people don't make it to 500 so the pool of candidates would be greatly diminished.


Huh? Is that really true?? Most people don't make it to 500? I realize a lot don't but the majority?

[jdthomas 0]

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Ditto. Better safe than sorry.

Maybe the jumper doesn't know how to shorten a loop or close a rig so he brushed off the issue to save face too.

No this was not the case, as he changed the length when he got down.
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[jdthomas 0]

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>

Put it this way. He wouldn't have put people at any more or less risk if he hadn't had that rating, and was still doing that 4-way.

Excellent point Billvon. But this person now has a rating and makes the situation a bit larger in my opinion.
When we look to those that have authority and they are in the wrong then it always seems to be larger then life.
By the same concept when a person of authority like a CEO or perhaps a police officer commits a crime then it seems to have a larger impact because this is a person that is supposedly trained or educated. It does add impact to this event that this person is a coach.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[diablopilot 2]

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i just feel that coach rating has not done the sport any favors at this time and shoudl be removed much like the BIC course.

The BIC (and the portion that became part of the Coach course) is a great way to introduce people to to the ways to teach. Nice thing was with a BIC rating in hand a person could work with an established DZ and teach FJC's while learning from the staff surrounding them, and having their experience vallidated by the DZ.

The coach couse has dumbed down the information provided from the BIC, and now provided the opportunity for those witht he rating to freelance, and often instilled them with the attitude that they know enough to. This is dependant on the individual, but in essence up untill recently the coach rating served be able to empower lower time jumpers while de-valuing experienced jumpers.

The coach rating was a response to the shortage of instructors a few years ago. It's helped that, but IMO at a cost. We have less qualified instructors, but more of them, and we've lost alot of the experience the sport had to offer.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rehmwa 2]

I think it's great that newbies with only a couple hundred jumps (or anyone) will go up with recent grads and help them work on basic skills progressions.

I don't think a formal rating is a good thing for that, or necessary. Nor do I think it's a good thing it's something chargeable.

I'd just as soon think of coaches as someone with a great deal of skill and experience that can really charge for training above and beyond laying base for a newbie.

If a recent grad is willing to pay for someone's jump because they aren't able to find jump buddies, I think they'd be better served seeking out someone they can learn skills from and hiring them, rather than just have a DZ assign some stranger to them.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[HeatherB 0]

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Huh? Is that really true?? Most people don't make it to 500? I realize a lot don't but the majority?

Sure seems that way -- especially a big drop-out rate between 100-300 jumps. Of course, this is all just my experience and from seeing people come and go at a large DZ. Very few people seem to make it 100 jumps, much less 500.

Maybe USPA or another organization has stats out there somewhere though.

[billvon 2,379]

> Excellent point Billvon. But this person now has a rating and makes the
>situation a bit larger in my opinion.

I agree. But it's not the fact that he/she has 100 jumps that causes the problem, it's that they are looked up to and are not being good examples. A few examples I've seen:

1) A VERY experienced coach who had one of the pieces of webbing going to his PC pud break. It was pointed out; he continued jumping it, saying 'it would be fine.' He didn't replace it until that night.

2) An AFF-I who was getting ready to exit - with her chest strap unthreaded. Fortunately I noticed before she got out.

3) An AFF-I who had a reserve closing loop so loose that the reserve PC material came out on every jump and flapped around. Again, he jumped all day before fixing it.

All those people had over 1000 jumps, so I don't think it's a problem unique to people with low jump numbers.

[jdthomas 0]

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All those people had over 1000 jumps, so I don't think it's a problem unique to people with low jump numbers.

Agreed that problems can arise at all skill levels. they are more likely to happen in the less skilled. and by that I mean more specific in the least number of years in sport and skydives made.
We all agree that teen drivers are by far more likly to get into an accident, that comes with many factors. age, car, hourse behind the wheel, and etc..
My thought is that with 100 jumps and the current program(s) that teach these new jumpers to become coaches has a great potential for error in the fact that jumpers like the one in my post are able to slip thru the cracks and breed the attitude that he has.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[hexadecimal 0]

Tunnel time or not, nobody with 100 jumps should be "coaching".

[NWFlyer 2]

So for those of you who think that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coach rating, when's the last time you brought it up to anyone at USPA? When's the last time you talked to a RD or ND about it?

Or do you just bitch on dropzone.com about how the sport is going to hell in handbasket? I've seen this opinion thrown around here a LOT ... but don't know whether anyone's actually trying to do anything about it.

Just curious, if there's a really strong belief that someone with 100 jumps shouldn't be working with anyone still on student status ... have you put your money where your mouth is?

(Personally, I don't have enough experience to say whether 100 jumps is enough, but it sounds to me like the problem may not be the minimum number of jumps - the problem may be course directors letting people who aren't ready to instruct, no matter their jump numbers, pass the course....)

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,379]

>the current program(s) that teach these new jumpers to become coaches
> has a great potential for error in the fact that jumpers like the one in my
>post are able to slip thru the cracks and breed the attitude that he has.

It's been my experience that it is the attitude, not the number of jumps, that is the issue. If anything, it is the more experienced jumpers who, through their experience, are more likely to "let things go" because they've never caused a problem before.

[billvon 2,379]

>nobody with 100 jumps should be "coaching".

At just over 100 jumps I was JM'ing! Of course I had also been in the sport for two years at that point, and had helped teach half a dozen FJC's, suited up a few hundred students and landed dozens. Nowadays 100 jumps represents a few months of time in the sport.

It all depends on who the student is. If it's a recent grad, and the coach jump involves someone to do a 2-way with, then no problem - indeed, it would likely be a learning experience to the student. If it's an RW person with 500 jumps and some tunnel time, then they probably don't have much to learn from a 100-jump coach.

[rehmwa 2]

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> Nowadays 100 jumps represents a few months of time in the sport..

This is something I forget when seeing threads like this one. I started at a small cessna DZ (not that long ago, but 20 years is long enough) and we all pitched in and it was good, and expected, for the 'experienced' jumper with a couple hundred jumps to take the new grads up and play with them.

But, we all could assemble our own rig, spot on any day, etc. You'd stay at the DZ all weekend even if it was too windy to jump, and just learn things. We'd pack tandems and student rigs for jump credit, help maintain and fuel the airplane, roll WDIs, all sorts of stuff. The learning was automatic and just shared. It was one guy's business, but we all took care of it like it was a club.

Things are different at the big resorts in all these areas. I'd say that skydiving is a much more inter-dependent sport today and maybe 100 jumps just doesn't mean what it used to.

I have to remember this. It can effect opinions on this type of topic.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tdog 0]

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Tunnel time or not, nobody with 100 jumps should be "coaching".

I disagree. I could name names, but I won't, but I know 5 100-200 jump folks who could out coach someone I watched coach who was a full time coach with thousands of jumps. And this was the opinion of the majority of the people who witnessed both in action.

Coaching is about sharing and teaching...

How often do you see a Nobel prizing winning mathematician teaching 3rd grade math? The people who teach 3rd grade math only need to know the subject they are teaching, not the high school or graduate school level.

I think having the ability for someone with lower experience to prove they can jump with a student safely, then go out and work with students is a win-win. A good coach will learn from the student, just as the student will learn from the good coach, even when they are both rather new.

If you had "AZ Airspeed" level coaching for everyone - 1) there would not be enough coaching, 2) no one could afford it because demand would go up and supply would stay the same, so the coaching would be out of reach financially.

Just my perspective.

[2shay 0]

i had over 100 jumps before six months i am athletic and pick up on stuff fast and had more skill than some people who had more experience BUT, there is no way that i would get my coach rating then. My opinion is that you should be pretty damn good before you can jump w students however many would not agree with that. would you feel comfy with someone that had six motnhs in the sport, or even a year for good measure for that matter? I personally wouldn't. Hopefully this may give people a different view on the subject

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[tdog 0]

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i had over 100 jumps before six months ... would you feel comfy with someone that had six motnhs in the sport, or even a year for good measure for that matter?

To me it is not about numbers.

If at six months you knew what you didn't know, had the skill to fly relative to a student, ability to teach and motivate others, awareness and retention of the student's "workons", and a core knowledge of the ground school skills to be taught, then I would think you could make a great coach.


The simple solution... Coach Course Evaluators (assuming the USPA system) that thoroughly teach and thoroughly test their candidates regardless of their "experience"... It is almost like jump numbers and years in the sport should be "don't ask, don't tell" so evaluators evaluate on coach candidate's ability, not on a bias towards numbers.

And I am not an expert, but I have evaluated for a coach course. The best "candidate" in the course I evaluated in terms of coaching ability and core knowledge was the only one that could not get his rating yet because he did not have the numbers on his resume.

[2shay 0]

I can see where you coming from and it kinda makes sense. Most of the time 100 jumps is just not enough to have much knowledge of anything in the sport. I have seen people pushed through the coach programs who were not skilled enough too.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[NWFlyer 2]

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So for those of you who think that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coach rating, when's the last time you brought it up to anyone at USPA? When's the last time you talked to a RD or ND about it?

Or do you just bitch on dropzone.com about how the sport is going to hell in handbasket? I've seen this opinion thrown around here a LOT ... but don't know whether anyone's actually trying to do anything about it.

Just curious, if there's a really strong belief that someone with 100 jumps shouldn't be working with anyone still on student status ... have you put your money where your mouth is?

(Personally, I don't have enough experience to say whether 100 jumps is enough, but it sounds to me like the problem may not be the minimum number of jumps - the problem may be course directors letting people who aren't ready to instruct, no matter their jump numbers, pass the course....)

Guess the answer is no. Guess it's not that important to anyone to try to change it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[2shay 0]

well people in the uspa are on this website and i can almost guarantee they know about the issue

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[jasonRose 0]

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So for those of you who think that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coach rating, when's the last time you brought it up to anyone at USPA? When's the last time you talked to a RD or ND about it?

Or do you just bitch on dropzone.com about how the sport is going to hell in handbasket? I've seen this opinion thrown around here a LOT ... but don't know whether anyone's actually trying to do anything about it.

Just curious, if there's a really strong belief that someone with 100 jumps shouldn't be working with anyone still on student status ... have you put your money where your mouth is?

(Personally, I don't have enough experience to say whether 100 jumps is enough, but it sounds to me like the problem may not be the minimum number of jumps - the problem may be course directors letting people who aren't ready to instruct, no matter their jump numbers, pass the course....)

Agreed!! Instead of bitching about it why not approach the 100 jump wonder in question and give them some constructive advice.

I am sick and tired of people pointing out what everyone is doing wrong, why not start pointing out what the right way of doing things in a constructive manner.

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[2shay 0]

alright guys and gals i just got an e mail from uspa central regional director gary peek. He said this, he has heard of this thread and there is talk there if coach should even have been created. THey have discussed the rating to death in S&T meetings. He told me that I could bring it to the board meeting if I wanted, but the ONLY thing that will matter is if MANY people contact the BOD or the regional director voicing the same concerns. I asked him to post and basically the USPA does not treat postings on forums or newsletters as valid input from members. So there you go if you really do have concerns as i did as well as most others you will take the minute it takes and go e mail BOD or regional director. IF not this thread is pretty well pointless because it will all stay the same.

=) Joel

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[dorbie 0]

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I am sick and tired of people pointing out what everyone is doing wrong, why not start pointing out what the right way of doing things in a constructive manner.

That would be coaching, and he disapproves of that.

[dorbie 0]

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will take the minute it takes and go e mail BOD or regional director.

Right, so if anyone feels strongly about this they should write to the BOD and urge them to retain the coach rating right?

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IF not this thread is pretty well pointless because it will all stay the same.

Of course not it will have aired the debate and made it clear that opinion is mixed on the issue.

Look, even if a whole bunch of people write the BOD for change on an issue that may just be a result of a one sided campaign and not a reflection of membership opinion.

So in all sincerity, DO write the BOD if you think USPA should retain coach ratings and if you feel that 100 jumps is adequate as a BARE MINIMUM requirement. Please consider jumper retention in the sport the impact on smaller DZs, and the benefits of providing some kind of path for newer jumpers with a calling to put more back into the sport.

[PeterB 0]

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So for those of you who think that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coach rating, when's the last time you brought it up to anyone at USPA? When's the last time you talked to a RD or ND about it?

Because I have no need to. There's a minimum requirement of 250 jumps, 2 years in the sport for anyone who wants to become a basic instructor in the country I've moved to. I'm not a USPA member and somehow I doubt the USPA wants non-members to dictate their rules and guidelines.

Also prefer to work at the grassroot level instead of dealing with professional bureaucrats. I leave the latter for those better equipped for that.

And yeah I put my money where my mouth is. More specifically, I pay my own slot whether I'm jumping with newbies or teaching someone with less experience than me in say head down flying.

To me 100 jumps ain't shit. 1000 jumps is enough to have the basics/intermediate stuff down but it's really not that much either.

The word 'coach' has clear connotations attached to it - professionalism, intimate theoretical and practical knowledge, experience. Even a good 100 jump coach lack some of those qualities.

So there is a gap between student<->newly licensed. The solution isn't to use newbies in an attempt to make the problem a little less severe. In my opinion.