Disconnect reserve

[betzilla 56]

Quote

As far as I know the number of manufacturers with any such requirement is one. Do you know of more than one? I'm just curious because if there are more than one I can avoid them as well.

PD, Icarus and Parachute Systems, I believe...

[gowlerk 1,903]

mattjw916

***The very reason I avoid PDRs

So you avoid what is basically the most tried and true reserve on the market because the manufacturer is trying their best to save you from yourself? Brilliant!

PD is the market leader, but there are others out there that are just as good, slightly cheaper, and don't have that restriction. I respect your choice, but it's not the only good choice. Being the biggest does not make them the best.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mattjw916 2]

I don't even own a PD Reserve anymore... I was addressing the shitty logic in the decision not to use one.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[skytribe 16]

Shlomo is normally bang on the money when it comes to these matters.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1888256;search_string=20%20year%20reserve%20%2B%20pd%20reserve;#1888256

Should give you a few more manufacturers that have specific requirements when having the historical record on the card is extremely useful.

[mcordell 2]

mattjw916

***The very reason I avoid PDRs

So you avoid what is basically the most tried and true reserve on the market because the manufacturer is trying their best to save you from yourself? Brilliant!

No, I avoid the PDR (don't know where you got "most tried and true reserve) because I disagree with planned obsolescence being used to secure better long term sales. I'm not sure how so many riggers have been duped into thinking PD is doing this because they care so much about the jumper or because they have your best interest at heart. It seems to me to be revenue driven.

Can you show me where every other manufacturer of reserves has had customers going in because their canopies didn't have this restriction? Why does the manufacturer not feel comfortable with riggers evaluating the airworthiness of each canopy they inspect and pack?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[NWFlyer 2]

mcordell

No, I avoid the PDR (don't know where you got "most tried and true reserve) because I disagree with planned obsolescence being used to secure better long term sales. I'm not sure how so many riggers have been duped into thinking PD is doing this because they care so much about the jumper or because they have your best interest at heart. It seems to me to be revenue driven.

Can you show me where every other manufacturer of reserves has had customers going in because their canopies didn't have this restriction? Why does the manufacturer not feel comfortable with riggers evaluating the airworthiness of each canopy they inspect and pack?

To flip it on its head, do you have data (or even multiple anecdotes) about the outcomes of PD's required inspections? "Planned obsolescence" implies that all (or even most) PD reserves that come back for inspection at 40 packs/25 rides are automatically certified as un-airworthy.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mark 102]

gowlerk

As far as I know the number of manufacturers with any such requirement is one. Do you know of more than one? I'm just curious because if there are more than one I can avoid them as well.

Icarus reserves have PD-style boxes on the data panel, center rib near the nose.

Chute Shop Decelerator reserves have PD-style boxes on the data panel.

Smart reserves have a requirement for porosity testing after 10 uses/20 packs, although they don't have any way to keep track.

-Mark

[mcordell 2]

I see it as planned obsolescence. Separately a manufacturer has told me there is no justification for it and a dpre I respect told me it was a means to collect data to ultimately justify a 20 year life, which I also see as needless planned obsolescence.

I was explaining why I prefer not to buy the pdr. My logic was labeled as "shitty" without asking why I feel thr way I do so I explained it. I have nothing against anyone who wants to buy a canopy with an expiration date but I choose not to.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mattjw916 2]

Um yeah, it's completely implausible that PD is at all trying to ensure your last chance doesn't turn into confetti when you get dumped out in a 165mph head down...

For a moment think about what a rig and the canopies its holding can go through it its lifetime. I've had mine since 2007 or so and in that time it's gone from below freezing in Colorado to the burning deserts of Eloy and Perris, plus dozens of places in between, time after time. It's been thrown in countless car trunks, closets, moving trucks, cargo holds... it's been scanned, swabbed, strung up, poked and prodded by dozens of people...

A reserve isn't some craptastic smart phone that the manufacturers are trying to get you to turn over for $600 every 18-24 months so I don't think your "planned obsolescence" argument has much if any merit.

If you feel fine jumping something like an "ancient" 5 cell Swift because you don't have to inspect it, then by all means have at it. Personally I take comfort exiting the plane knowing I don't have literally the cheapest shit I could find on my back.

(Apologies to anyone that owns a Swift in advance )

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mark 102]

mcordell

I see it as planned obsolescence. Separately a manufacturer has told me there is no justification for it and a dpre I respect told me it was a means to collect data to ultimately justify a 20 year life, which I also see as needless planned obsolescence.

I was explaining why I prefer not to buy the pdr. My logic was labeled as "shitty" without asking why I feel thr way I do so I explained it. I have nothing against anyone who wants to buy a canopy with an expiration date but I choose not to.

I have more than once returned 20-year-old canopies to PD that I know had more than 40 packs and more than 25 jumps. They came back with data panels for 40 more packs and 25 more jumps. When those panels are full, those canopies will have been in service for more than 40 years. I think you are mistaken about it about being planned obsolescence, and I think the DPRE was mistaken about the data being collected to justify a 20-year service life.

Mark

[skytribe 16]

mark

***I see it as planned obsolescence. Separately a manufacturer has told me there is no justification for it and a dpre I respect told me it was a means to collect data to ultimately justify a 20 year life, which I also see as needless planned obsolescence.

I have more than once returned 20-year-old canopies to PD that I know had more than 40 packs and more than 25 jumps. They came back with data panels for 40 more packs and 25 more jumps. When those panels are full, those canopies will have been in service for more than 40 years. I think you are mistaken about it about being planned obsolescence, and I think the DPRE was mistaken about the data being collected to justify a 20-year service life.

MCordell, I think you have a opinion which is a strange misconception about recertifying and obsolescence. The 40 repack / 25 year is about ensuring that the product is still in good enough shape to be considered airworthy by the manufacturer. 20 years in the field can be a hard life for canopies. Maybe not all canopies.

To think that at 40 repacks, PD just tells you its done.... Shows an extremely low opinion of PD as a company or there products. I don't work for PD but do consider there products and customer service to be great.

I don't see any problem with recertification as it helps protect me as a rigger from the potential of criticism for packing older equipment (because the manufacturer has recertified it) and helps the customer determine that their reserve is in good shape as well by the manufacturer many years after it was produced.

For this to occur the full history of the canopy needs to be evident - hence the need for the packing data card with the reserve and the data panel to be correctly marked. It annoys the crap out of my when riggers either pencil pack or don't mark the panel (Intentionally or not).

[piisfish 135]

mcordell

No, I avoid the XXX (don't know where you got "most tried and true XXX) because I disagree with planned obsolescence being used to secure better long term sales. I'm not sure how so many riggers have been duped into thinking XXX is doing this because they care so much about the jumper or because they have your best interest at heart. It seems to me to be revenue driven.

according to your profile you jump with an AAD with planned obsolescence

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

***No, I avoid the XXX (don't know where you got "most tried and true XXX) because I disagree with planned obsolescence being used to secure better long term sales. I'm not sure how so many riggers have been duped into thinking XXX is doing this because they care so much about the jumper or because they have your best interest at heart. It seems to me to be revenue driven.

according to your profile you jump with an AAD with planned obsolescence

Not anymore. I never updated my equipment. I had a cypres when I bought my wings rig because I was told by a rigger that was the best and not to buy anything else. I didn't know enough about any of the gear to have my own opinion so I just bought a cypres. I wished later that I had done more research and bought a vigil for that very reason but that's neither here nor there. We live and learn.

To that end, I don't jump a swift. Both my rigs have ravens in them. I personally like ravens but that is just my personal opinion and my experience. Some people hate them.

As for the PDR, I'm not saying I will never buy one. I don't seek them out because as much as I like what I have I don't see a need to change to something with those types of restrictions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to what is best for them and I can respect everyone else's opinion on why they want what they have.

I was under the impression that when they were recertified they were given 10 more pack jobs. If they recertify it for 40 more pack jobs then I think that changes my opinion significantly considering you will probably never have it inspected a second time so essentially you have to do so once in the canopy's life assuming you don't jump the same reserve for more than 40 years....that's a long time.

I do find it somewhat entertaining how aggressively people attack an opinion that differs from theirs sometimes.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[skytribe 16]

mcordell

I was under the impression that when they were recertified they were given 10 more pack jobs. If they recertify it for 40 more pack jobs then I think that changes my opinion significantly considering you will probably never have it inspected a second time so essentially you have to do so once in the canopy's life assuming you don't jump the same reserve for more than 40 years....that's a long time.

I do find it somewhat entertaining how aggressively people attack an opinion that differs from theirs sometimes.

Each to there own opinion that's what makes discussion. I personally don't care what you jump that's your personal choice.
The fact other manufacturers have similar restrictions but aren't immediately obvious. Either way a complete history of a canopy is a good thing.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Sometimes I have a hard time looking past the common sense to see how it's possible to break stuff.

I tend to give those unfamiliar with it a pass...unless they do something nutty 'after' being told the right way.

Lets face it, there are those that feel understanding their gear and how to maintain it is actually a part of being a Skydiver....and there are those who don't care or are intimidated by it. Neither is right or wrong, it is what it is.

I just tend to error on the side of simplistic safety when offering advice of that type when you're not face to face so to speak...

Years ago I remember a lot of people saying finger traps don't need to be bar-tacked...saw a guy that relined his own canopy that actually believed it...for a short while!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[likestojump 3]

PD's recert is not for 40 repacks/25 rides. Its for 25/15 or 20/12 depending on when you got it recertified. I believe the next recert is an even shorter cycle.

Or they may tell you it's too porous and mark it Unairworthy.

pictures attached.

Anyone else care to provide facts as opposed to pulling statements out of their ass ? :)

[mark 102]

likestojump

PD's recert is not for 40 repacks/25 rides. Its for 25/15 or 20/12 depending on when you got it recertified. I believe the next recert is an even shorter cycle.

Or they may tell you it's too porous and mark it Unairworthy.

Anyone else care to provide facts as opposed to pulling statements out of their ass ? :)

My experience of 8 canopies returned to PD for evaluation:

5 canopies recert for 40 packs or 25 rides
1 canopy recert for 20 packs or 12 rides
1 canopy recert for 15 packs or 9 rides
1 canopy unairworthy because of excessive permeability.

The 20-pack and 15-pack canopies were the same make/model/size, manufactured in the same month/year, and were recertified at the same time, which to me is evidence that it is the condition of the canopy that matters, not when it was recertified.

Mark

[councilman24 36]

Back on topic....

I have seen people damage risers, including reserve risers, with the sharp edge of the threads on an open french link. No it wasn't me.


Remember you don't know what you don't know.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mcordell 2]

likestojump

PD's recert is not for 40 repacks/25 rides. Its for 25/15 or 20/12 depending on when you got it recertified. I believe the next recert is an even shorter cycle.

Or they may tell you it's too porous and mark it Unairworthy.

pictures attached.

Anyone else care to provide facts as opposed to pulling statements out of their ass ? :)

Now I'm curious about the one showing one repack but unairworthy.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[riggerrob 558]

skytribe

How about the packing data card with the reserve ?

..........................

Simple!
If you sell:harness, reserve and AAD separately, send photo-copies of the packing data card with each component.

Traditionally the card went with the reserve canopy because jumpers often wore out 2 or 3 containers before they wore out their reserve canopy. They just transferred their old reserve and card to their new container when they threw their faded, frayed and filthy old container in the trash.

[skytribe 16]

riggerrob

***How about the packing data card with the reserve ?

..........................

Simple!
If you sell:harness, reserve and AAD separately, send photo-copies of the packing data card with each component.


Agreed if you sell either harness or reserve separately that a copy should be sent. But what does the original go with ? From you comment about traditionally it went with the reserve I would think this would continue.

Either way a copy is better than nothing and then at least you have a more complete history.

[riggerrob 558]

.... and with one of my used reserves I got no links. I figured they probably had purchased soft links and wanted to keep them for the new reserve. .....
.........................................................

The seller cheated you. I hope he discounted the cost by the price of a new set of links.

As an aside, saying something like "links are easy to come by" may be accurate at large DZs, but is annoying at small DZs where it might take weeks to mail-order missing parts.

Also, you need to learn to be more gentle, more welcoming to newbies who did not benefit from your superior upbringing. Many newbies have never ever seen a rigger, much less apprenticed under a rigger.

Bottom line DZers would be wiser to respectfully educate newbies .

[Deyan 31]

likestojump

Anyone else care to provide facts as opposed to pulling statements out of their ass ? :)

Like this one?

Some time ago I saw a reserve approved for 10 repacks or 6 jumps.

Cheers

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[mcordell 2]

riggerrob

Also, you need to learn to be more gentle, more welcoming to newbies who did not benefit from your superior upbringing. Many newbies have never ever seen a rigger, much less apprenticed under a rigger.

Bottom line DZers would be wiser to respectfully educate newbies .

Was I not welcoming? I thought I was being helpful. If not then my apologies. You are right though. I have been afforded some great opportunities having grown up on a dz and having a rigger as my step-father who has taught me a great deal. I understand not everyone has had the same opportunities and many seek out a rigger and spend countless hours away from their own family learning the trade. I did think I was respectful though.....

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[riggerrob 558]

***Yea assuming it has metal links it is the same. Use a screw driver inside the link to give you a way to hold it when you torque with a wrench to loosen the barrel. Make sure you turn it the right way.

..........................................

I gave up on using a screwdriver decades ago.
Something about a bleeding finger.
Rather I clamp the open-end wrench onto the link then lean it against the workbench or floor. Usually I use one hand on the wrench handle and press on the barrel with my other hand the "flatten the bridge." Fewer skinned knuckles that way.

One other warning: make sure you understand the difference between the small end of the Maillon Rapide link and the big end.

9 mm wrench fits the most popular size (5) of Maillon Rapide metal connector link.