nigel99 143 #26 August 28, 2014 As someone who packs for people these are my thoughts. If you are a team and negotiate team rates and want fast pack jobs then make sure the brakes are set, excess stowed and PC cocked. When you are run off your feet doing your best to help meet the timing then all this helps. If doing student, tandem or the odd cash pack I don't really care what state the equipment is given to me in. I don't buy into the ethos of you pay for the pack and not the opening and I do take care. There are people with attitude who blame packers and I won't pack for them anymore (we have a guy who is constantly chopping and it is always the packers fault. funny that other people don't seem to have the same issues)Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #27 August 28, 2014 Sounds like you have enough customers so that you don't have to put up with bullshit people that complains about 90 degree off heading. With student pack job, I expect it to be fucked up. Flip, Step thru whatever it is. It is so funny to watch them figure out how to get the step thru out.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
talon2 0 #28 August 28, 2014 Attend to my nylon and rubber ......thats easy .........Do not sweat on my gear .......ever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trafficdiver 8 #29 August 28, 2014 I'd rather shoot myself then fire my packer. She is awesome, fast and her openings are infinitely better than mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justme12001 0 #30 August 28, 2014 I totally agree with you! I NEVER double stow, I have used all large, and all small bands as well as a combination of the two if needed. My thoughts have always been that free bags and stow-less bags don't have rubber bands holding the lines all nice and tight, so why is my standard main D-bag different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #31 August 28, 2014 justme12001My thoughts have always been that free bags and stow-less bags don't have rubber bands holding the lines all nice and tight, so why is my standard main D-bag different? Because in these cases the lines are being hold nice and tight, but not by rubber bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #32 August 28, 2014 In order to make this pole valid...... BOOBIES In response to the story about the rigger packing the main and reserve, rumor. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #33 August 28, 2014 justme12001I totally agree with you! I NEVER double stow, I have used all large, and all small bands as well as a combination of the two if needed. My thoughts have always been that free bags and stow-less bags don't have rubber bands holding the lines all nice and tight, so why is my standard main D-bag different? I go with the people who have probably the most experience with canopies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsca5add8g&list=PL45E3B7998E49283ERemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #34 August 29, 2014 stayhighSounds like you have enough customers so that you don't have to put up with bullshit people that complains about 90 degree off heading. With student pack job, I expect it to be fucked up. Flip, Step thru whatever it is. It is so funny to watch them figure out how to get the step thru out. haha - No I just tend to pack to pay for jumping money - the day job pays the bills. That means I can be selective.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #35 August 29, 2014 Good reasons to fire your packer would be. 1. Packing is not done when you come back. 2. You have to go find your packer all the time. 3. You go and find your packer at 11 am, and the dude is drinking already. 4. You throw your pc and it takes over 1000 ft for container to open due to PC not being cocked(somewhat of jumper's fault) and slider is still closed(again somewhat of jumper's fault), and your toggle is not stowed(and again somewhat of jumper's fault)Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andym148 2 #36 August 29, 2014 In general i think the minimum you can do is set your breaks, open up your slider and untwist and cock your pilot chute. The only time i won't do this is if the packer tells me to leave it as I'm slowing them down, by making them wait for me. Had a shit**y opening at Elsinore over Easter, and went back to the packing matt bitching and moaning about the opening, complaining to the packers about it. When they asked who packed it, i said it was me. I promptly fired myself from packing and gave it to the professionals to do, viola perfect on heading openings from then on. The fastest pack job I've ever had was in Kolomna in Russia, she packed my Pilot 150 on average in about 2m 30secs...that said you didn't want to watch her packing! But in the 50+ jumps i did in the 2 weeks i never had a slammer or line twists or anything funky and the best bit the going rate back then was £8 ($15) for a jump and a pack job.At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #37 August 29, 2014 Deimian Because in these cases the lines are being hold nice and tight, but not by rubber bands. No they are not. The lines are being held neat and orderly (if put into the system that way) but there normally isn't any tension on any of the line except for the locking stows on a semi-stowless bag. I think line dump is like the boogie man, sounds scary but doesn't exist in practice. Bag strip is a different story, that can happen, but it has nothing to do with your stows down line of the locking stows."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #38 August 29, 2014 I personally don't care who sets the brakes, un-collapses the slider, and cocks the PC. That is part of the understanding that the packer and the jumper need to work out, no different from any other exchange of service and cash. That being said a packer is absolute fucktard if they pack the system in an un-airworthy condition. Canopies should not be packed and jumped with any of these things not done correctly, period. If your the packer and your pack jobs don't include those things then you should leave the pack job on the mat, or take it up with owner later. Being a past packer I think people should hold themselves to a higher standard and exercise due care, that includes making sure a rig only gets packed when it is properly set-up, and making a reasonable effort to keep an eye out for wear and tear risks like a worn closing loop."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #39 August 29, 2014 DougH*** Because in these cases the lines are being hold nice and tight, but not by rubber bands. No they are not. The lines are being held neat and orderly (if put into the system that way) but there normally isn't any tension on any of the line except for the locking stows on a semi-stowless bag. I think line dump is like the boogie man, sounds scary but doesn't exist in practice. Bag strip is a different story, that can happen, but it has nothing to do with your stows down line of the locking stows. Well, I disagree. Of course they will be as nice as you put them, but that is why normally people fold the lines in "8", instead of just push them inside. Regarding tension on the lines: No, there is no tension on the lines, but the pouches can be tight, and hold the lines neatly in place. For freebags I really doubt that the lines have enough mass to create inertia big enough to work their way out of the velcro pouch completely, right after the freebag leaves the container. For stowless or semi-stowless it depends on the pouch, if it holds in place or not. If the pouch comes open easily, due to loose tabs or weak magnets, then of course it might open during the chaos of the opening and let the lines loose before reaching line stretch. But a properly maintained and designed stowless system should hold the pouch closed until that point, with the lines coming out as they are being pulled. I think "should" is the keyword here, and I am open to admit that in some cases the pouch can come open before line stretch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #40 August 29, 2014 Disagree all you want, but as far as opening force the stows beyond the locking stows play no role. People didn't stop free stowing lines in their main packtrays because of hard openings, it was because of the sport death aspects of having a line hitch or get snagged on a part of the container. If I could eliminate that risk I would gladly show you that I could coil all of the line except to locking stows and have no difference in opening force."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #41 August 29, 2014 DougHDisagree all you want, but as far as opening force the stows beyond the locking stows play no role. People didn't stop free stowing lines in their main packtrays because of hard openings, it was because of the sport death aspects of having a line hitch or get snagged on a part of the container. If I could eliminate that risk I would gladly show you that I could coil all of the line except to locking stows and have no difference in opening force. I never talked about hard openings. I've just said that with freebags and stowless bags the lines are kept nice and tight in their pouch, that's all. Therefore saying that using loose rubber bands is ok because freebags and stowless bags don't have rubber bands is simply a bad argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wasatchrider 0 #42 August 29, 2014 talon2Attend to my nylon and rubber ......thats easy .........Do not sweat on my gear .......ever your packer is sweating on your gear even if you dont know it.BASE 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #43 August 29, 2014 An alternative to firing... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2127405#2127405 Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #44 August 29, 2014 Quote Tip your packers for good work. Treat them nicely and don't put up with bad behavior. I haven't packed once in the last 7 years..... While I jump all over the place, normally you'll find me in Deland. Some here will say BS but I truly believe the packers there give a shit about their pack jobs. I tip well....line twist don't bother me.....a cut away doesn't bother me...(it happens) but a pissy attitude will run me off fast.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #45 August 29, 2014 Balanced stows Free-bags depend upon balanced locking stows to prevent line dump. When free bags are closed properly, the weight of line stows outboard of the locking stows should equal the weight of the lines between the two locking stows. That is the same reason why main d-bag locking stows are close together. Safety-Stows are the second reason that reserve free-bags are less likely to dump lines. Safety-Stows (aka free-bag locking stows) are made of rubber bungee cord sheathed (protected) in braided cotton or nylon. Since all good riggers are trained to replace Safety-Stows at the first sign of wear, your Safety-Stow should always be in like-new condition. Line stow pockets are the third factor that limits line-dump. Line stow pockets are sewn onto most free-bags, most BASE canopies (aka " tail pocket") and lots of Canopy Formation canopies. Since line-stow pockets have comparatively small openings, they always a "balanced" line stow method. IOW when you stow suspension lines in a pocket, the weight of the lines outboard always exceeds the weight of the lines directly pressing on the pocket opening, ergo there is little pressure to dump lines no matter how violently the d-bag is snatched off your back. Pocket closing method is the least important variable as long as the pocket stays closed throughout the opening sequence. All lines should slide out the standard opening smoothly. It should not matter whether your line stow pocket is closed with Velcro, tuck-tabs or magnets because they all do the same job. Velcro has fallen out of fashion (for main d-bags) because of wear-and-tear issue. First, hook Velcro has a bad habit of chewing suspension lines. Secondly, hook Velcro also chews through pile Velcro after a hundred or two hundred jumps and it is a nuisance to ask your rigger to replace worn out pile Velcro halfway through the season. Notice that I kept saying "most"????? There is one exception ... newer Racers do not use a Safety-Stows to close their free-bags. Newer Racers only use rubber bands to close their free-bags, but they use lots (think a dozen) of MIL SPEC rubber bands as locking stows, so all the line stows are still "balanced" in rubber bands. IOW Racer "Speed Bags" lack line stow pockets. In conclusion, you risk line dump if you loosely stow thin lines in frayed rubber bands. The smaller the bights outboard of the rubber bands, the greater the risk of line dump. The heavier the weight of lines dangling between the elastics, the greater the risk of line dump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #46 August 29, 2014 I pack my own main. I pack my own reserve. I pack my wife's reserve. I have trust issues as well apparently. I take pride in every packjob, and it's comforting to know that when I pitch, I know what's coming out. And if/when I do have a mal, I'll know what's coming out when I pull silver. I also really like being able to keep tabs on all my gear. The way I see it, I'm trusting it with my life every jump, so why wouldn't I want an intimate relationship with my gear. I have a sort of ritual when packing and have developed my own tricks for the oh so nice openings. I also jump an rds that i made and I don't trust people to set up properly. Edit to add.... I've always had the feeling that you pay for the pack job, not the opening. If you want it a certain way, pack it yourself. I was also taught to stow your brakes(which I do as soon as I land; no more untwisting brake lines), uncollapse your slider, and lay it out nicely if you want it packed. That being said, shit happens.I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NowAndLater 0 #47 September 2, 2014 KripBOOBIES This immature, pointless, and attention grabbing comment only suggest that you are in fact the 5'9" ish, buzzed dark hair, 50lbs overweight, sexist, moron that couldn't find a job to save his life numb skull that has just purchased his tandem rating from who knows and is tossing drogues at a 182 drop zone in Glenwood Springs, Colorado. If not, then you're right, its a rumor at this stage because I can't provide proof. I didn't GoPro the event. Stay tuned, I'll post a picture of exactly who I'm talking about... I will probably be sticking a boot in my mouth and/or ending my career shortly but I will always stand firm when I say that there needs to be more education into people that need to leave the sport due to safety reasons....Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #48 September 2, 2014 NowAndLater***BOOBIES This immature, pointless, and attention grabbing comment only suggest that you are in fact the 5'9" ish, buzzed dark hair, 50lbs overweight, sexist, moron that couldn't find a job to save his life numb skull that has just purchased his tandem rating from who knows and is tossing drogues at a 182 drop zone in Glenwood Springs, Colorado. If not, then you're right, its a rumor at this stage because I can't provide proof. I didn't GoPro the event. Stay tuned, I'll post a picture of exactly who I'm talking about... I will probably be sticking a boot in my mouth and/or ending my career shortly but I will always stand firm when I say that there needs to be more education into people that need to leave the sport due to safety reasons.... I'll take Super Random Thread Drift for $800, Alex. Krip's been around these forums for quite a spell. He's nowhere near 5'9", ain't huckin' drogues in Colorado, and based on your description is not the droid you're looking for. Boobies is a long standing (albeit immature and sexist, I'll grant you that) poll option "requirement" in the Bonfire."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #49 September 2, 2014 When the guy shows up sober, but his hand is shacking pretty bad due to not having enough alcohol in his system.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 619 #50 September 2, 2014 Reason #1: Improperly closed container that almost kills you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
