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tsalnukt

So, a cypres is gonna.....

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...expire before the end of the repack cycle. The rig itself is due for a repack now. Cypres DOM is june14 2010, which means that it will stop working with almost 2 months left on the repack.

What do you do??
send cypres out foor service because you don''t want to have a cypres become 'in-op' during the cycle???
Leave cypres in and repack it and let him/her worry abouit later when it stops working??

Curious to know how people would handle it....

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The rigger is responsible for determining if the equipment is airworthy at the time of packing. If the Cypres is airworthy at the time of packing, the FAA says he may pack it -- although he is perfectly within his rights to choose not to.

The user is responsible for determining if the equipment is airworthy at the time of use. If there is required scheduled maintenance due (inspect & repack, for example, or AAD service/replacement), the equipment is not airworthy. Similarly, if there is unscheduled maintenance needed (damaged leg strap repair, dead AAD batteries, closing loop needs adjustment), the equipment is not airworthy. The user is responsible for returning the equipment to a rigger for service; riggers are not required to chase down their customers to make sure their equipment is still airworthy.

With respect to the Cypres, there may be a good reason the user would want it packed with 4 months remaining. In Minnesota, for example, 4 months from now there won't be much skydiving. Why give up 3 weeks of summer jumping if the rig won't be in service during the winter?

The rigger should let his customer know his options. If you and the customer choose to repack with the AAD now, then on the data card in addition to writing the actual repack date, consider writing in red ink: "Repack okay through 31 Dec 2014 when AAD service is due. Manifest programs should enter 04 Jul 2014 as repack date"

Mark

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To clarify: the Cypres will probably still work (e.g. Cut reserve loop at 750 feet AGL) after it's retirement date.
I have several 15-year old Cypri (sitting on a shelf) that still do the usual start-up routine.

The problem is that old batteries, old explosives and old solder joints become less reliable as they get older.
The Cypres factory has been monitoring reliability of the fleet and they concluded that hard-working Cypress 1 will start suffering cracked solder after more than 12 years in service.

When faced with the original poster's dilemma, I repack the reserve and write "Cypres retires October 2014" on the packing data card. Then I tell the customer that they are responsible for replacing the Cypres in October ... I usually write "Cypres retires October 2014" on the invoice as well.
Come November, they are adults and if they chose to break the rules, they have been warned and they are no longer my problem.

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If the Cypres is airworthy at the time of packing, the FAA says he may pack it



Mark,
Can you tell us were you found that in writing?

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The user is responsible for determining if the equipment is airworthy at the time of use.



...and this one too.
While I agree that the user should be responsible; the responsibility is still on the pilot before letting he or she out.


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Hello MEL -

65.129(b) requires the parachute to be safe for emergency use at the time of packing, although not for any specific period of time after that.

You're right: 105.43 or 105.45 apply to the user and pilot at the time of use. 91.307(a) also applies at the time of use.

What is/are your reference(s) to the contrary?

-Mark

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tsalnukt

...expire before the end of the repack cycle. The rig itself is due for a repack now. Cypres DOM is june14 2010, which means that it will stop working with almost 2 months left on the repack.

What do you do??
send cypres out foor service because you don''t want to have a cypres become 'in-op' during the cycle???
Leave cypres in and repack it and let him/her worry abouit later when it stops working??

Curious to know how people would handle it....



Your first option, plus offer to repack the rig so he can continue to use it. Otherwise, decline the repack altogether. I personally won't repack a rig unless the AAD is serviceable for the entire 180 day cycle. I can't trust that the jumper will follow through on the required maintenance.

In regards to others' comments, annotations on the packing data card are meaningless and unenforceable. You'd be putting yourself at risk.

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It's an adult sport. My customers are responsible adults. I explain the situation to them and advise them what the proper thing to do is. I don't feel at all at risk because I get them to sign that it has been explained to them.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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cjdskydiver

I personally won't repack a rig unless the AAD is serviceable for the entire 180 day cycle



In some European countries, with a 365 day cycle, one might be trying to screw a customer out of nearly a year of their AAD life if using that philosophy.

Heck you can't guarantee a customer won't keep jumping your reserve pack job past 180 days at a DZ without strict repack checks, or have a main-reserve entanglement due to a low pull, or fill the reserve container with sand, or bake the rig in a closed car in summer in Arizona, or jump with a wet reserve after a pond landing.... or whatever.

But I guess we all choose our own exposure to risk.


Edit:
Trying to be helpful here and not just dismissive ---

At least if the customer disregards your AAD expiry instructions, plus notations on the reserve card, it is pretty clear who is at fault. Print it on his invoice if you want and keep a copy so your warning is on record. Any rigger could have a customer snivel in with a not fully inflated reserve after an AAD fire and have relatives of the deceased come after you. In comparison, I would hope you are pretty well covered for liability if you can show you told the customer what date the rig is no longer current.

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gowlerk

It's an adult sport. My customers are responsible adults. I explain the situation to them and advise them what the proper thing to do is. I don't feel at all at risk because I get them to sign that it has been explained to them.



Hmm, responsible adults, er skydivers...boogie coming up, travel booked...reserve is in-date but I forgot about that pesky AAD service...guess I need to cancel my plans...yeah, right...anyone ever been questioned about AAD service during a gear check when registering for a boogie...me either...they just look at when it was last packed...

Let us know how that policy works out for you when the feds come knocking, eh... ;)

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I'm thinking of making a stamp for the data card.
Help with language?

***Your AAD is out of it's maintenance cycle (date)______________. It is illegal to jump this rig after that date!

Or words to that effect? Help with wording to make it short, simple and harsh enough?

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cjdskydiver

***It's an adult sport. My customers are responsible adults. I explain the situation to them and advise them what the proper thing to do is. I don't feel at all at risk because I get them to sign that it has been explained to them.



Hmm, responsible adults, er skydivers...boogie coming up, travel booked...reserve is in-date but I forgot about that pesky AAD service...guess I need to cancel my plans...yeah, right...anyone ever been questioned about AAD service during a gear check when registering for a boogie...me either...they just look at when it was last packed...

Let us know how that policy works out for you when the feds come knocking, eh... ;)

................................................................................

Back to my last post .... If the rigger writes on the packing data card "Cypres retires October 2014" the boogie manifest should notice when they do gear checks.

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pchapman

***I personally won't repack a rig unless the AAD is serviceable for the entire 180 day cycle



In some European countries, with a 365 day cycle, one might be trying to screw a customer out of nearly a year of their AAD life if using that philosophy.

Heck you can't guarantee a customer won't keep jumping your reserve pack job past 180 days at a DZ without strict repack checks, or have a main-reserve entanglement due to a low pull, or fill the reserve container with sand, or bake the rig in a closed car in summer in Arizona, or jump with a wet reserve after a pond landing.... or whatever.

But I guess we all choose our own exposure to risk.


Edit:
Trying to be helpful here and not just dismissive ---

At least if the customer disregards your AAD expiry instructions, plus notations on the reserve card, it is pretty clear who is at fault. Print it on his invoice if you want and keep a copy so your warning is on record. Any rigger could have a customer snivel in with a not fully inflated reserve after an AAD fire and have relatives of the deceased come after you. In comparison, I would hope you are pretty well covered for liability if you can show you told the customer what date the rig is no longer current.

As mentioned, one could offer to do the repack without the AAD while it's out for service...

I'm going to follow the law, even if it means I'm applying the most conservative view of it. When I do a repack, I'm saying it's good for the full 180-day cycle, with no interim maintenance required. If they keep jumping it after 180 days, it's not the rigger's problem. Your other comments don't even enter into the conversation...:S

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riggerrob

******It's an adult sport. My customers are responsible adults. I explain the situation to them and advise them what the proper thing to do is. I don't feel at all at risk because I get them to sign that it has been explained to them.



Hmm, responsible adults, er skydivers...boogie coming up, travel booked...reserve is in-date but I forgot about that pesky AAD service...guess I need to cancel my plans...yeah, right...anyone ever been questioned about AAD service during a gear check when registering for a boogie...me either...they just look at when it was last packed...

Let us know how that policy works out for you when the feds come knocking, eh... ;)

................................................................................

Back to my last post .... If the rigger writes on the packing data card "Cypres retires October 2014" the boogie manifest should notice when they do gear checks.

Hmm, lots of people lined up to register, get their gear checked and jump...the DZ staff just wants to get people processed as quickly as possible..."should" is very subjective. They're not examining the packing data card for AAD maintenance, service bulletin compliance or anything out of the ordinary...just the last pack date.....maybe in a perfect world...

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cjdskydiver

*********It's an adult sport. My customers are responsible adults. I explain the situation to them and advise them what the proper thing to do is. I don't feel at all at risk because I get them to sign that it has been explained to them.



Hmm, responsible adults, er skydivers...boogie coming up, travel booked...reserve is in-date but I forgot about that pesky AAD service...guess I need to cancel my plans...yeah, right...anyone ever been questioned about AAD service during a gear check when registering for a boogie...me either...they just look at when it was last packed...

Let us know how that policy works out for you when the feds come knocking, eh... ;)

................................................................................

Back to my last post .... If the rigger writes on the packing data card "Cypres retires October 2014" the boogie manifest should notice when they do gear checks.

Hmm, lots of people lined up to register, get their gear checked and jump...the DZ staff just wants to get people processed as quickly as possible..."should" is very subjective. They're not examining the packing data card for AAD maintenance, service bulletin compliance or anything out of the ordinary...just the last pack date.....maybe in a perfect world...

...............................................................................................

I always write "Cypres retires October 2014" on a separate line, below the last repack date. That is unusual and it messes with their reading "flow", forcing them to look twice and ask "what the ????"

This reminds me of gear checks during the 1997 USPA Nationals in Perris. One competitor had a reserve that was going to expire halfway through the competition. After he tried to sneak through gear check for the third time (fancy excuses, swapping cards, etc.) Al Frisby yelled "tall guy with the black Vector! Quit wasting our time!"

The other reason for writing "Cypres retires October 2014" on multiple pieces of paper is that it spreads the guilt onto multiple people OTHER than the rigger. If there is ever an accident, the rigger can point to "Cypres retires October 2014" and claim that his ass is covered. That forces lawyers to chase some else's tail.

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dpreguy

***Your AAD is out of it's maintenance cycle (date)______________. It is illegal to jump this rig after that date!



It might be against manufacturer recommendations, but is it really illegal? Per the FAA? USPA?

What if the AAD is out of maintenance, but you just don't turn it on - would that still be "illegal"?

I'm curious, since the AAD is not a mandatory piece of equipment...
( o Y o )

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5318008

******Your AAD is out of it's maintenance cycle (date)______________. It is illegal to jump this rig after that date!



It might be against manufacturer recommendations, but is it really illegal? Per the FAA? USPA?

What if the AAD is out of maintenance, but you just don't turn it on - would that still be "illegal"?

I'm curious, since the AAD is not a mandatory piece of equipment...

FAR 105:43

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.


Must in federal regulations is mandatory language.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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Can you tell us were you found that in writing?


AC 105-2E section 14a(4) says that "the rigger is only certifying that [the reserve parachute] meets all safety requirements on the day it is packed" and instructs the rigger to note AAD maintenance due dates on the data card so that the user can make sure the rig is legal to use. Section 14a(5) allows opening and resealing the reserve for scheduled or unscheduled AAD maintenance.

That isn't the FARs, but it is guidance from the FAA and presumably takes the FAA's intepretation of the FARs into account. Absent a regulation that directly contradicts the AC, I am comfortable with the legality of packing a rig with an AAD that will require maintenance within the repack cycle.

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dpreguy

I'm thinking of making a stamp for the data card.
Help with language?

***Your AAD is out of it's maintenance cycle (date)______________. It is illegal to jump this rig after that date!

Or words to that effect? Help with wording to make it short, simple and harsh enough?



Over here the card says what date the first component becomes not valid for jumping.
So rig and reserve needs to be inspected (not repacked) after 6 months, but if your AAD needs maintnence or your rig and/or reserve becomes 20+ years old that date is filled in the field instead.
It works overe here.
Only need to look at one date to determin if the rig is 'ok'.

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dpreguy

Illegal is a bit strong. Not in compliance with 105.43 applies to the rigger, not the jumper. What would you put on the card?



With all due respect, I think 105.43 applies to the jumper and pilot in command if you read the entire thing in context. (b) is specific to the rigger but (c) which is the part that applies to the AAD, I would think the subject refers back to the opening paragraph.

Illegal is a bit strong, as we usually use that term for criminal activity and this would be a civil offense.

I fill out the card in the usual manner, noting the date of packing. I then add a line indicating when the AAD goes out of date. ("AAD expires on XX/XX/XXXX")
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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