Argus

[theQ 1]

I am looking for a used AAD, Argus seems to be fairly cheap compared with Vigil and Cypress.

I viewed some comparisons, they are not bad when it comes to Argus, everybody brings up for how long Cypress was around and how well tested it is - German Engineering after all but is Argus that bad ?

Would any of you bring me some pros and cons arguments for Argus ? I am addressing to Argus owners and those that considered it and didn't go for it.

Thanks!

[NWFlyer 2]

Cons: You can't put it in some rigs. You can't jump it at some dropzones.

Pros: cheap.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[councilman24 36]

Other cons? It may kill you and other jumpers and may not save your life when it should.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[theQ 1]

Is there a list of rigs it doesn't fit ?

[gowlerk 1,911]

You need to do some research on your own. Use the search function of this forum. Search for Argus cutter problems. Bottom line, Argus is discontinued and poorly supported. Some manufacturers do not allow it to be used in their containers. Many people won't even consider using them, that is why they are cheap.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[theQ 1]

councilman24

Other cons? It may kill you and other jumpers and may not save your life when it should.

so why is not entirely banned is if is that bad! I just read some posts from 2011 about Argus equipped rigs being grounded.

[theQ 1]

Ok, I already forgot about Argus!

[Deyan 31]

theQ

so why is not entirely banned is if is that bad! I just read some posts from 2011 about Argus equipped rigs being grounded.

It is! In many countries and some US DZs!

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[Joellercoaster 6]

Banned entirely in the UK.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

theQ

so why is not entirely banned is if is that bad!

This brings up an interesting point.... in the US, I am not aware of a MEANS to "ban" any piece of skydiving equipment which is not FAA approved (TSO). For skydiving equipment, there is a TSO process for only the harness/container and the reserve canopy. Since AADs are not approved through that process, I am not aware of a way to "ban" a product.

Skydiving equipment NOT subject to the TSO process would include: Helmets, altimeters, main canopies, AADs, and such.

Even if the USPA were to try to "ban" a product, that would have NO effect on the many DZs which are not members of USPA.

Some other countries have much more intrusive regulation schemes for jumping (sometimes referred to as "nanny state") which provide a means to regulate skydiving equipment along with many other aspects of jumping which are not regulated in the USA. An example would be that some countries regulate canopy size by experience. In the USA, the USPA makes recommendations.... but if the DZ will let the jumper on the plane with a tiny canopy there is nothing else to stop the jumper from doing that.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Southern_Man 0]

councilman24

Other cons? It may kill you and other jumpers and may not save your life when it should.

True for all AADs

Some other brands have a much longer list of failing to save lives when they should.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[theQ 1]

Ok that leads me to the other can of worms V2 or C2 ?

[councilman24 36]

Southern_Man

***Other cons? It may kill you and other jumpers and may not save your life when it should.

True for all AADs

Some other brands have a much longer list of failing to save lives when they should.

A longer list of SYSTEM failures where the AAD worked as designed but.the rest.of.the system failed. And the AAD didn't capture the loop.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[gowlerk 1,911]

Quote

Ok that leads me to the other can of worms V2 or C2 ?

M2

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Southern_Man 0]

councilman24

******Other cons? It may kill you and other jumpers and may not save your life when it should.

True for all AADs

Some other brands have a much longer list of failing to save lives when they should.

A longer list of SYSTEM failures where the AAD worked as designed but.the rest.of.the system failed. And the AAD didn't capture the loop.

I agree the other AADs didn't capture the loop.

Other AADs have various failure modes both killing and failing to save people. The idea that other parts of the system failed is, IMHO, speculation, as is the conclusion the AAD worked as designed.

So little information has been shared it is possible that you have more conclusive knowledge and can state that as fact but I have asked people who know about more information about those incidents and they either don't know it or are not willing to share it.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[theQ 1]

"AADs didn't capture the loop" can you be more specific what do you mean by that ? Is that an expression that I don't know ?

[Southern_Man 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4087807;search_string=argus%20loop;#4087807

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3630952;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[DougH 270]

Southern_Man

I agree the other AADs didn't capture the loop.

What is your dog in this fight? The Argus is a piece of shit, and now it is a poorly supported piece of shit with lots and lots of use restrictions.

People bought them to save a buck over other options, and it cost them.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Southern_Man 0]

DougH

***

I agree the other AADs didn't capture the loop.

What is your dog in this fight? The Argus is a piece of shit, and now it is a poorly supported piece of shit with lots and lots of use restrictions.

People bought them to save a buck over other options, and it cost them.

I have no dog in this fight except to see accurate information portrayed about all AADs.

I do not use an Argus. I advise my customers against using an Argus. I will pack an Argus if it is allowed and my customer chooses it.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Wow, such a strong opinion. Please, tell us you have some concrete evidence to support your very confident sounding claim, or are you just relying on the propaganda and internet articles to base your opinion too?

PS: Don't drive/buy a Toyota because they had a recall once and therefore they're all bad and will always be bad.

To the OP:
I jump an Argus in each of my 2 rigs. Works perfectly fine each time, I just had them both serviced this spring (great support), and they've exibited no issues, much like 99% of the Cypres and Vigil units out there.

My logic is this. There are very few reasons any AAD should fire, even fewer of those would be completely out of my control (unconscious). If I am unconscious, and I bust the AAD firing altitude, what are the odds that I'll also have a defective unit? Even then, there is so much speculation over these defective units. Each incident had "suspicious" reasons for it happening. I'm a rigger and see how some people take care of their gear...I'd be willing to be that 75% of thes incidents could be traced back to poor gear care which impacted the AAD. All of this could just as easily happen with a Vigil or a Cypres.

Anyways, jump what YOU feel safe jumping. If you're not confident in the Argus, best not to jump it. Just don't avoid it because some guys from the interwebz said you shouldn't without providing any grounds aside from their opinion based on some articles they read that really didn't conclude anything.

PS: The argument that it is banned in some rigs can just as easily be reversed to say: Some manufacturers found no issue/concern and continue to offer their approval for it. Some of those manufacturere originally revoked their certification, but after testing/further details, they reinststed it.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[mark 102]

Chris-Ottawa

Some manufacturers found no issue/concern and continue to offer their approval for it. Some of those manufacturers originally revoked their certification, but after testing/further details, they reinststed it.

Refresh my memory: which manufacturers were these?

Mark

[Deyan 31]

mark

Refresh my memory: which manufacturers were these?

Mark

Altico and Mirage. From my memory! I'm lazy to search the SB's so I could be wrong !

Cheers

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[Unstable 8]

Quote

People bought them to save a buck over other options, and it cost them.

I would disagree with that statement. In the height of the Argus, it was no less expensive than the Vigil and only slightly less (<$100) than the Cypres II. I think the driving element for choosing the Argus, as well as the Vigil, was the multi-mode functionality.

=========Shaun ==========

[mark 102]

Deyan

***Refresh my memory: which manufacturers were these?

Mark

Altico and Mirage. From my memory! I'm lazy to search the SB's so I could be wrong !


I don't recall Altico/Dolphin or Sunrise/Wings ever "approving" an AAD in the way that, say, UPT or RI has. They just said they weren't in the AAD approval business. That's Basik's and Mirage's current position also (and maybe VSE/Infinity as well?). And that's different than saying those manufacturers had no issues or concerns.

Mark

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Deyan,

Quote

From my memory!

Here is a portion of the Mirage SB 06-11:

MIRAGE SYSTEMS, INC.

PRODUCT SERVICE BULLETIN No. 06-11

24 JUNE 2011

SUBJECT: Rescission of Mirage Product Service Bulletin 03-11, dated 24 March, 2011 which suspended approval for the installation and use of an Aviacom SA/NV ARGUS® AAD in Mirage Systems, Inc. harness and container assemblies.

AFFECTED PRODUCTS: All Mirage harness and container models (G3, G4.1, RTS)

COMPLIANCE: ADVISORY

BACKGROUND: Mirage Systems, Inc. issued Product Service Bulletin 03-11 on 24 March, 2011 in response to a report from the field that an Argus AAD manufactured by Aviacom, SA/NV had failed to completely cut through the reserve closing loop on a Mirage . . . .

RECOMMENDATION: If an AAD is installed, carefully inspect the cutter assembly at each repack to verify that a foreign object is not present and that the cutter is not damaged. Before each jump, verify that the cutter has not fired.

SERVICE BULLETIN: Effective immediately, Mirage Systems, Inc. reinstates approval for the installation of the Aviacom SA/NV Argus AAD in Mirage System, Inc. manufactured harness and container assemblies.


JerryBaumchen