should work ethics in buying skydiving gear matter?

[virgin-burner 1]

say, there's a company making gear out there that employs child labour to make their product, of course such a company will not advertise this on their website,

would this fact matter to you or would you not care, or to keep it in line with the the poll-title, would it influence your (informed) buyers decision or not.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

depends if they work properly

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[ZippyZ 0]

Is the quality of the manufacture excellent?
Would the children otherwise be going hungry if not for the job?
Does the job take them away from school?

I guess it depends upon the totality of the circumstances in the country in which this is occurring. Is it a net benefit to the child, or an overall negative?

[busichio 0]

Does it matter in any other goods or services that you purchase?

[wasatchrider 0]

virgin-burner

say, there's a company making gear out there that employs child labour to make their product, of course such a company will not advertise this on their website,

would this fact matter to you or would you not care, or to keep it in line with the the poll-title, would it influence your (informed) buyers decision or not.

you called them out in another thread.. why not now?

BASE 1519

[3mpire 0]

Quote

you called them out in another thread.. why not now?

he doesn't want to let the squirrel out of the bag?

though in general the skydiving community doesn't seem to have many qualms about these types of issues. Nobody ever really mentions that the UAE has a horrible human rights record, and that many of the buildings in the background of all those SD Dubai shots were build by migrants held captive and in deplorable conditions.

It's a valid question though: to what degree should our sport take these issues into account when it comes to who we should support with our dollars.

edited to add: not sure this is the right forum for it though -- maybe general or speakers or something ::shrug::

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi v-b,

Quote

would it influence your (informed) buyers decision or not.

The vast majority of skydivers that I have met in the last 50 yrs remind of a 17 yr old male, in a whore-house for the first time with a fistful of $50 bills. He is not thinking politicallty correct; he has other things on his mind.

Besides, generally, what can you buy here in the USA that is not made in some country with poor child labor laws?

JerryBaumchen

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Nobody ever really mentions that the UAE has a horrible human rights record, and that many of the buildings in the background of all those SD Dubai shots were build by migrants held captive and in deplorable conditions.

In fairness, a number of us have mentioned just that in other threads on here. That (what you said), plus the fact that if you as a tourist get caught up in their their byzantine legal system you are so, so majorly fucked. I really can't see myself ever spending my tourist or skydiving dollars in Dubai (and possibly Thailand, too, for example), and these are the reasons why.

[3mpire 0]

Completely fair point--I should say it is uncommon for these issues to come up in conversation, though it isn't unheard of.

However, I don't know of any high profile jumper ever declining an invitation to participate or be sponsored by SD Dubai due to their host country's reputation.

(If I understand correctly, the dz and multiple wind tunnels are owned by a prince, so the direct relationship between the country's policies and the DZ is pretty clear--anyone please correct me if that understanding is wrong)

[virgin-burner 1]

apparently it's "political" and got moderated accordingly.

i see it from an ethical point of view; and i would NOT buy such a product. also, if a company doesnt do much more than copying existing designs while others lay the groundwork, that's another reason to steer away from such a company, even if it's saving you a couple dollars in the short run, in the long run, you as a customer will end up with poorer products.

just something to think about.

i dont like singing praises for something that i dont know all the details about. that is not cool in my books.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[NWFlyer 2]

3mpire

However, I don't know of any high profile jumper ever declining an invitation to participate or be sponsored by SD Dubai due to their host country's reputation.

I do, but since it's third hand info I won't post names as I've never independently verified the info.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[3mpire 0]

Quote

I do, but since it's third hand info I won't post names as I've never independently verified the info.

that's cool, but also a bummer--nobody is ashamed to be on the cover of a magazine or in a tv commercial jumping from their planes or covered in their logos, but others are ashamed or unwilling to say they WON'T do so because they don't want to lend legitimacy to a country that has such human rights baggage.

[NWFlyer 2]

3mpire

Quote

I do, but since it's third hand info I won't post names as I've never independently verified the info.

that's cool, but also a bummer--nobody is ashamed to be on the cover of a magazine or in a tv commercial jumping from their planes or covered in their logos, but others are ashamed or unwilling to say they WON'T do so because they don't want to lend legitimacy to a country that has such human rights baggage.

I have no idea how this person feels about it; I heard through the grapevine that the offer had been turned down and why, so it wasn't kept secret. But at the same time, how people act about politics and social issues varies. Some people are very willing to become the poster child for a cause, and others are more quiet in their statements. To each their own, but to say the person is "ashamed and unwilling" is jumping pretty far in assigning motive, don't you think?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[3mpire 0]

Quote

To each their own, but to say the person is "ashamed and unwilling" is jumping pretty far in assigning motive, don't you think?

Absolutely--that's a fair point.

I wasn't speaking about individuals, and I suppose there is an implicit value judgement in what I said that isn't fair.

Everyone has different motives and reasons for speaking out publicly or choosing to take a personal stand based on morality without then putting the other party on blast.

It is more of a general observation, I suppose, that many high profile people support the DZ and an unknown and comparatively quiet number don't.

Personally, I can't keep an opinion to myself if I think something isn't right. It doesn't always win friends, and sometimes you're the only one publicly taking the other side, but it's just how I'm wired. I don't hold it against people if that's not how they operate

[Maksimsf 0]

Unfortunately these kids do not have many choices - Honduras, South Africa or Vietnam. If they will be prohibited sewing mains, reserves or wingsuits - most likely they will ended up in the sex market... What about Foxconn Technology Group? Lets talk about an Iphone? Is it ethical to have one? One company copied from another? Well that makes most H/C manufacturers, but Sunpath and UPT copycats? By the way - do you have a proof that some "wingsuit manufacturer" employs children? I don't see a problem if company treat their underage employees fair. What about major canopy manufacturer that makes most of their products somewhere in Central America? Do you have a first hand info of who works there?

[wstcstcmtr 0]

Andy9o8

Quote

Nobody ever really mentions that the UAE has a horrible human rights record, and that many of the buildings in the background of all those SD Dubai shots were build by migrants held captive and in deplorable conditions.

In fairness, a number of us have mentioned just that in other threads on here. That (what you said), plus the fact that if you as a tourist get caught up in their their byzantine legal system you are so, so majorly fucked. I really can't see myself ever spending my tourist or skydiving dollars in Dubai (and possibly Thailand, too, for example), and these are the reasons why.

What's the problem with Thailand?

[Doug_Davis 0]

wstcstcmtr

What's the problem with Thailand?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100309031800/darkheresy/images/0/0c/Its_a_trap.jpg

[Arvoitus 1]

virgin-burner

apparently it's "political" and got moderated accordingly.

i see it from an ethical point of view; and i would NOT buy such a product. also, if a company doesnt do much more than copying existing designs while others lay the groundwork, that's another reason to steer away from such a company, even if it's saving you a couple dollars in the short run, in the long run, you as a customer will end up with poorer products.

just something to think about.

i dont like singing praises for something that i dont know all the details about. that is not cool in my books.

Are you talking about the various Pakistani operations that sell cheap knock offs of better known brand skydiving apparel?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[danornan 64]

It's all a matter of degrees... Very few are pure!

Dano

[GD64 1]

So true!
We all have to make our own call on this issue, and live with it.
The "globalist" are currently winning.

[virgin-burner 1]

Arvoitus

***apparently it's "political" and got moderated accordingly.

i see it from an ethical point of view; and i would NOT buy such a product. also, if a company doesnt do much more than copying existing designs while others lay the groundwork, that's another reason to steer away from such a company, even if it's saving you a couple dollars in the short run, in the long run, you as a customer will end up with poorer products.

just something to think about.

i dont like singing praises for something that i dont know all the details about. that is not cool in my books.

Are you talking about the various Pakistani operations that sell cheap knock offs of better known brand skydiving apparel?

nope, i'm talking about a "reputable" manufacturer..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DHemer 0]

***Unfortunately these kids do not have many choices - Honduras, South Africa or Vietnam. If they will be prohibited sewing mains, reserves or wingsuits - most likely they will ended up in the sex market...quote]

As a side point, having been in the aerodyne factory there were no kids to be seen. We have far too many unemployed adults for kids to be doing the work in most cases

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

What's the problem with Thailand?

Well, the recent coup and the country's sketchy human rights record have me concerned.

Of course I recognize that, especially nowadays with such a global economy, it's not practically possible to keep all one's money and purchases out of the pockets or economies of other countries' governments that I object to, but to the extent I can do some selective avoidance, I try to.

[piisfish 135]

virgin-burner

nope, i'm talking about a "reputable" manufacturer..

so who would that be ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Fall0ut 3]

Not every company who runs factories in Far East countries is exploiting its workers or using child labor.

If you don't have proof, it might be better to keep your mouth shut