USED CYPRES DOM AND LIFE CYCLE VS COST OF NEW

[katzas 0]

Beware the used Cypres ads that state "new in the box".

As an illustration of that little trap--there is an ad posted for just such a Cypres--"new"--never been installed or jumped BUT with a DOM of 2008. Asking price--$1000.00.

Here's the math. Cypres' online value calculator of used units pegs this one at $665.71. Since it is "still in the box" we can assume that it has never had it's 4 year mandatory trip back home. That will cost at least $160.00 plus the wait time.

The life of a Cypres is about 12 years. The DOM of 2008 means that half of that life is gone. Further--it is only 2 years from it's next mandatory service interval or--$80.00 per year for those two years.

A new Cypres 2 can be had for about $1300 (with it's attendant 12 year life) with some judicial shopping around. The cost of the 2008 "new in the box" Cypres, when all things are considered, is about the same. Duhhhhh.........

[likestojump 3]

What's next for you, great katzas ?
Are you going off to sail the world and discover new continents ?
Research and discover nuclear fusion ?
Invent the wheel ?

Here's a pretty cool tool. I bet anyone who had done over a minutes of searching on the top had found it.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/usedcypres.asp

PS Don't eat yellow snow

[likestojump 3]

As katzas pointed out to me via a PM (with a lot of nasty words), I apparently am trolling his honorable quest to educate the masses.

Apparently re-hashing old information via new posts with ALL-CAP titles is one's divine right when they are on a mission from conscience.

My apologies for pointing out the obvious.

When the poster makes first hand advice mixed with phrases like "The life of a Cypres is about 12 years", the value of such advice isn't very high.

Let's not forget the OP's undying belief in one specific Master Rigger's reluctance to pack canopies over 15 years old which by katzas's reading became the end-all advice to all who would listen.

All hail katzas, The Great. I am sure he's a long time experienced jumper, rigger and overall good guy who is just too shy to speak of his accomplishments.

PS I am 100% sober at the time of writing of this message

[RiggerLee 61]

If it's such a wasted post then why are used cypreses so over valued. A lot of people seem to think that these old units are made from gold and con young jumpers into paying them. It's an inflated market. A lot of people don't seem to understand the math or don't bother to do it. And then seem over whelmed by the cost and up keep of skydiving. I've seen occasional jumpers or those looking to get back into the sport floored by the cost when they come in and I tell them that they need not only a repack but a four year and battery. And by the time that's all done and they make their one or two jumps and look at the credit card bill... Well it can be a little disheartening. I've seen events like that be the deciding facture in whether or not they continue in the sport.

These units are expensive. People need to be aware of the math when they make the decision to buy them.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[katzas 0]

likestojump

As katzas pointed out to me via a PM (with a lot of nasty words), I apparently am trolling his honorable quest to educate the masses.

Apparently re-hashing old information via new posts with ALL-CAP titles is one's divine right when they are on a mission from conscience.

My apologies for pointing out the obvious.

When the poster makes first hand advice mixed with phrases like "The life of a Cypres is about 12 years", the value of such advice isn't very high.

Let's not forget the OP's undying belief in one specific Master Rigger's reluctance to pack canopies over 15 years old which by katzas's reading became the end-all advice to all who would listen.

All hail katzas, The Great. I am sure he's a long time experienced jumper, rigger and overall good guy who is just too shy to speak of his accomplishments.

PS I am 100% sober at the time of writing of this message

Thank you for your praise--although coming from you it means little. Also--thanks for telling all of us that you were sober when you wrote your reply. How can you (or anyone else) tell?

I don't need your permission to state what you deign to be redundant information. Evidently over 300 skydivers so far were interested enough in my post to read it including a rigger who works for a major manufacturer and seems to agree with me.

The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service.
Your comment, "When the poster makes first hand advice mixed with phrases like "The life of a Cypres is about 12 years", the value of such advice isn't very high." seems to belie your affirmation as to the state of your sobriety.

First, I suggest you attempt to read my post again--it wasn't "advice" it was a statement of fact--or are facts not what you deal in? Second, nowhere in my post do I offer "advice". I merely state mathematical and fiscal reality.

As to my colorful language in the PM--yes--and you deserved it.

Perhaps you object to and are a bit sensitive of an educated skydiving consumer? After all--who among us on this blog are used skydiving gear mongers---including, perhaps used AADS.......hmmmmmmm? My post hitting a bit too close to home? Caveat emptor all.

I grow weary of this battle of wits with an unarmed opponent with an hidden agenda.

This will be my last reply to any of yours. Troll away--it falls on more and more deaf ears.

[dwhenline 0]

katzas
as a newbie
Thank you
good value used equipment isnt always what it seems.

[katzas 0]

dwhenline

katzas
as a newbie
Thank you
good value used equipment isnt always what it seems.

You're welcome. My original post was a pretty simple analysis of the cost of a "new-in-the-box" Cypres AAD with a date of manufacture some time in 2008. The asking price was $1000.00.

To someone who is new to the sport (we all were at one time) and perhaps unfamiliar with all the ramifications of what buying that AAD are I sought to illustrate the pitfalls of ignorance that comes with being new. No judgement calls--just numbers and limitations imposed by the manufacturer. For this attempt at education a self-proclaimed guardian of the redundant chose to attack me personally on this blog while ignoring the purpose of my analysis.

As a new skydiver you put him to shame because you "got it".

Mission accomplished. Thanks for your reply. Blue skies.

[Deyan 31]

katzas

The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the life of Cypres 2 is 12 years and 6 months.

And YES, taking a reserve out of service just because it's 15 years old is simply stupid thing regardless whoever told you that.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[skez 0]

Deyan

***
The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the life of Cypres 2 is 12 years and 6 months.

And YES, taking a reserve out of service just because it's 15 years old is simply stupid thing regardless whoever told you that.

Yeh its the cypress1 thats 12years 3 months....
and I currently use reserve older than 15years...

FTMC

[JeffCa 0]

I also found the post worthwhile. I'm not a Cypres owner, so I didn't know this stuff, but it might be useful in the future. The reaction you got was one of the most undeserved that I've seen on this forum. It got me wondering if the person reacting was a gear dealer, and a check confirms that he is. Perhaps he has an interest in people being ignorant of this? I'd hate to think that's true, but the angry and abusive reaction suggests that it's possible. It would certainly cause me to be cautious of this particular dealer, if I was in the market to buy.

Not all of us have been on here since the beginning or spend our time going through the enormous amounts of old threads. We see topics when they come up again. Skydive Radio's Safety First segment has repeated topics because they acknowledge that not everyone has listened to the 200 or so back-episodes.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[likestojump 3]

My point is that if someone with no credentials starts giving advice on every little thing, without giving proper facts, then the forums will be forever polluted.

Here's a simple advice on buying Cypres AAD's :

use this calculator : http://www.cypres-usa.com/usedcypres.asp

Simple advice on buying other gear (and this gets repeated every other day) :
Ask experienced jumpers and riggers that you know.
Have the gear shipped to the rigger if you feel uncomfortable.
ChutingStar has a good guide written : http://www.chutingstar.com/more/skydive/expert-advice/34-gear-buying-tips

Pretty simple. Definitely unbiased, and definitely a lot more credible than posts from a random person on the forums who has a history of unfactual drivel.

[katzas 0]

Deyan

***
The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the life of Cypres 2 is 12 years and 6 months.

And YES, taking a reserve out of service just because it's 15 years old is simply stupid thing regardless whoever told you that.

I stand corrected for the difference of 3 months. Thank you for correcting that.

As to the reserve longevity issue--I never said that all reserves should be taken out of service because they are 15 years old. I did pass on information that was made available to me by a master rigger and equipment manufacturer with 30 years of experience and my own opinion with regard to what I would do. I presume that each skydiver will make his or her own decision based on his or her own educated opinion. Believe it--don't believe it--it's all up to you. BUT--use all the information available to make that decision.....and that 15 year longevity issue is but one element of that decision process.

[katzas 0]

JeffCa

I also found the post worthwhile. I'm not a Cypres owner, so I didn't know this stuff, but it might be useful in the future. The reaction you got was one of the most undeserved that I've seen on this forum. It got me wondering if the person reacting was a gear dealer, and a check confirms that he is. Perhaps he has an interest in people being ignorant of this? I'd hate to think that's true, but the angry and abusive reaction suggests that it's possible. It would certainly cause me to be cautious of this particular dealer, if I was in the market to buy.
Not all of us have been on here since the beginning or spend our time going through the enormous amounts of old threads. We see topics when they come up again. Skydive Radio's Safety First segment has repeated topics because they acknowledge that not everyone has listened to the 200 or so back-episodes.

Thanks for your reply. You and others like you are precisely why I wrote the original post. In my opinion that particular deal was a non-starter. However, to someone without the underlying information "new in the box" at $300.00 to $400.00 off the going price might seem like a good deal. The choice to buy or not buy is still up to each individual. I just hate to see someone new to the sport get hosed because of the lack of information. An educated consumer--especially when your life may depend on the product you are considering--is the best shield against getting taken by some unscrupulous seller.

As to someone deliberately selling unsafe gear to someone--I too would hate to think that any skydiver would do that. There was a day when, if a skydiver did that he or she would be tarred and feathered by his fellows. But--as I wade my way through some of the forum comments--sadly, it happens.

My antagonist states as fact that I have neither the experience or credentials to participate in this forum--one of many statements he has made in error. I feel no need to participate in a blowing my own horn activity--but--my first log book documents my first jump from a Norseman made on a very cold day in Orange in March of 1966.

You are quite right in pointing out that that same self-appointed judge of who and who is not worthy is, indeed, a used gear dealer. I do not accuse him of a conflict of interest in his personal attacks except to say caveat emptor and to consider the source and motivation of his abusive and undocumented responses.

I stand by my original post. Thanks for actually reading and understanding it. I hope more do.

[piisfish 135]

in his first post, Paul (Likestojump) was a little bit sarcastic against the original poster, but also provided a vlauable (and free) tool which is the Cypres cost calculator.

You two should now get a couple of beers and meet for some get back together sex

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

Deyan

***
The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the life of Cypres 2 is 12 years and 6 months.

And YES, taking a reserve out of service just because it's 15 years old is simply stupid thing regardless whoever told you that.

if i'm correct, in belgium a reserve older than 10yrs (?) is deemed not airworthy anymore.. and will not be packed by a rigger anymore.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

JeffCa

I also found the post worthwhile. I'm not a Cypres owner, so I didn't know this stuff, but it might be useful in the future. The reaction you got was one of the most undeserved that I've seen on this forum. It got me wondering if the person reacting was a gear dealer, and a check confirms that he is. Perhaps he has an interest in people being ignorant of this? I'd hate to think that's true, but the angry and abusive reaction suggests that it's possible. It would certainly cause me to be cautious of this particular dealer, if I was in the market to buy.

Not all of us have been on here since the beginning or spend our time going through the enormous amounts of old threads. We see topics when they come up again. Skydive Radio's Safety First segment has repeated topics because they acknowledge that not everyone has listened to the 200 or so back-episodes.

paul is a well-respected dude in the community.. you and katzas on the other hand, are not.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JeffCa 0]

virgin-burner

paul is a well-respected dude in the community.. you and katzas on the other hand, are not.

Oh, so you "well-respected" people get to be jerks to the rest of us? Thanks for letting us know where you stand in that respect. His post was abusive and uncalled for, "well-respected" or not. And yours was just lovely, thanks.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[katzas 0]

piisfish

in his first post, Paul (Likestojump) was a little bit sarcastic against the original poster, but also provided a vlauable (and free) tool which is the Cypres cost calculator.

You two should now get a couple of beers and meet for some get back together sex

No--his reply was not "a little bit sarcastic" it was an attack on me--with no dispute as to the analysis itself. I believe I mentioned that I used the Cypres online calculator to determine the true value of that AAD in question. It is a useful tool as you point out.

One of the most useful words in the English language is "why".
I, and presumably many others who read the attack asked the question, "why would someone go to such lengths to attack a simple financial analysis--a reality check if you will--of an ad that clearly overpriced a piece of equipment" The answer to that question may be that the attacker has a motive that we do not understand. A bit of research reveals a possible solution. He sells used gear. A monger of any product salivates over an uneducated customer. The irony is that at least one potential customer has expressed a reluctance to deal with him based on his response. Education is a wonderful thing.

As to your suggestion about beer and make-up sex--I am quite prepared to receive and accept an apology from him. However, carnality goes beyond the pale of tolerance.

[RiggerLee 61]

Just close your eyes and pretend he's a hot girl.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[likestojump 3]

katzas

***in his first post, Paul (Likestojump) was a little bit sarcastic against the original poster, but also provided a vlauable (and free) tool which is the Cypres cost calculator.

You two should now get a couple of beers and meet for some get back together sex

No--his reply was not "a little bit sarcastic" it was an attack on me--with no dispute as to the analysis itself. I believe I mentioned that I used the Cypres online calculator to determine the true value of that AAD in question. It is a useful tool as you point out.

One of the most useful words in the English language is "why".
I, and presumably many others who read the attack asked the question, "why would someone go to such lengths to attack a simple financial analysis--a reality check if you will--of an ad that clearly overpriced a piece of equipment" The answer to that question may be that the attacker has a motive that we do not understand. A bit of research reveals a possible solution. He sells used gear. A monger of any product salivates over an uneducated customer. The irony is that at least one potential customer has expressed a reluctance to deal with him based on his response. Education is a wonderful thing.

As to your suggestion about beer and make-up sex--I am quite prepared to receive and accept an apology from him. However, carnality goes beyond the pale of tolerance.

I don't deny or hide the fact that I sell gear. The fact that I have moved tonnes of nylon makes me extremely knowledgeable as a buyer, as as seller, and as a rigger. I don't cheat people, and I don't dwell on uneducated customers. If you've ever dealt with me and started asking me uneducated questions I'd either do my best to educate you, or send you off to an unbiased party, s.a. an experienced jumper or rigger at your local DZ.

now, again, let me spell this out for you :

You have no demonstrated any credibility to give advice. Having made your first jump in Orange in 1966 is undoubtedly an awesome bragging point, but it does not automatically make you an expert in anything. For the record I have made my first skydive from a Beech 18, but that's just another useless fact.

You have on multiple occasions referred to George Galloway's private statement to you about unwilling to pack gear over 15 (and later you flip-flopped that number to 20) years old, and you repeatedly tried to sell that as a fact, rather than an opinion given to you in private.

You have on multiple occasions stated incorrect data (Cypres service being $200, Cypres2 life being 12 years).

Lastly, in this thread, you took a very uncommon problem (someone advertising a life-limited product as NEW, without regard that it had been on a shelf for a very long time) and asking an unrealistic price for it. This does not deserve it's own thread. This is not a recurring problem, and anyone with half a brain asks for DOM on an AAD, and most other things.

Additionally, I have never stated or suggested that you should not be posting on the forums. I do however have a very firm belief that people should not be giving advice about topics they are not an expert on.

If you have the time, please see the threads where username ChrisD had posted. He is another old(ish) timer like you claim to be, who came in all internet-(un)educated and started posting pages of letters filled with no value.

If you have time after that, read some posts by a username "Sangi". His story did not end well.

"Common sense ain't too common nowadays"

[Sky_doggy 0]

RiggerLee

Just close your eyes and pretend he's a hot girl.

Lee

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "Like" Button

[flydog 0]

Paul are you sure he's not ChrisD?

[gowlerk 1,910]

Quote

paul is a well-respected dude in the community.. you and katzas on the other hand, are not.

I'll butt in here. That's a little harsh. I respect Jeffca a lot. and katzas at least a little, even if he is a Pain in the Katzas at times.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[virgin-burner 1]

gowlerk

Quote

paul is a well-respected dude in the community.. you and katzas on the other hand, are not.

I'll butt in here. That's a little harsh. I respect Jeffca a lot. and katzas at least a little, even if he is a Pain in the Katzas at times.

not really directed at you, but.. if you cant stand the heat, dont go into the..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[katzas 0]

RiggerLee

Just close your eyes and pretend he's a hot girl.

Lee

Heh--but no. I don't have THAT good an imagination.

It's amazing how a simple analysis of the true value of an AAD has escalated (or perhaps descended) into such a pissing contest.

While it is true that the SSK cost to service a Cypres 2 is $160.00 and I stated a $200.00 out of pocket cost--the highly respected member of the community used that "error" as a means of discrediting me--I suggest checking out what it costs to ship a Cypres 2 to Ohio. Unless you happen to live next door to the service center in Lebanon, according to FEDEX, the cheapest shipping cost including insurance is about $33.00. I used my Florida zip code as the originating point--just to get an average cost. So--my original statement of the real cost of the 4 and 8 year service was within about $7.00 of being correct. Sue me for seven bucks!!! He also makes large of my using "about 12 years" when referring to the life of a Cypres AAD. Mea maxima culpa--in the interest of complete accuracy--a Cypres 1 is 12.25 years and a Cypres 2 at 12.5 years--both distinctions without appreciable difference. Grasping at straws--and mighty thin ones at that.

George Galloway's response to me was, indeed, prompted by my question as to the useful and safe life of a reserve canopy.
However, it was hardly private. It was part of a larger published treatise on canopy life. As a highly respected and credentialed member of the community I would have thought my antagonist would have already been privy to that treatise. As to it being Mr. Galloway's opinion--absolutely (and one I choose to lend credibility to).
I presume that a master rigger with 30+ years of experience in rigging, designing and building canopies is at least as competent and credible as my esteemed critic claims to be.

He also states that my post was of very limited value because this is not a common problem--that of overpriced used gear on DZ. At this moment there is a Cypres 2 AAD listed with a DOM of 12/2010 making it about 3.5 years old. The asking price is $1200.00. Presumably, the 4 year service has not been accomplished (it is not mentioned in the ad) because the unit won't be 4 years old until December. Cypress' online calculator pegs the value of this unit at $878.08 making the asking price about $300.00 more than Cypres says it's worth. I know I can buy a new Cypres 2 for about $1300.00. Maybe the $100.00 difference is significant enough to some to buy the 3.5 year old AAD but not to me. Six months or so from now that used unit will have to be sent to Marion for service......at an additional cost of $160.00 plus shipping cost--which beats the hell outta the aforementioned $200.00. The new one at $100.00 more has 4 years before it has to go back for service--not to mention you can be assured that you are the first user.

Now, maybe the seller will take less--and maybe he will take $300.00 less which brings that AAD in line with what Cypres says it's worth. That still leaves the issue of confidence....and I can't put a dollar value on that.

My original post stands despite my detractor's attack. I note with some interest and amusement that he never, in all his noise, challenged the financial information, the Cypres maintenance intervals or anything else relevant to that post. His only weapon is personal attack, and attempting to discredit my analysis with innuendo and outright falsehoods.

I now bring this incredibly long and, no doubt, intensely boring tome to a close. As ever, we are all entitled to do whatever we wish. Buy, don't buy.......but do it with all the information you need.