Blown toggle hoods

[councilman24 37]

Attached is a photo of both rear risers from a customer. It's a new Mirage with 30 jumps and factory risers. On this last jump both the top toggle nose hood and the keeper/hood for the bottom nose on the velcroless toggle blew out and the brake released All side stitches were torn loose. On the other riser one side of the top hood was blown out but the brake did not release.

On a previous jump the sides of one top hood were blown out. It was restitched by another rigger.

I haven't seen this guy pack. He called me over after landing. No other damage.

Ideas? I can fix it but need to figure out what to tell the guy to prevent it.

I have a couple of weird possibilities. Somewhat unbelievable mistakes with the brakes but things I've seen done. But will save those for later. Right now anybody have any ideas on why this happened?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[wolfriverjoe 1,456]

The only time I've seen this happen is when they don't pull the cat-eye below the ring.

It's an easy enough mistake for a newer jumper (or one who doesn't pack for themselves much) to make.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jumpsracer 6]

What Wolfriverjoe said.

[crazydiver 0]

wolfriverjoe

The only time I've seen this happen is when they don't pull the cat-eye below the ring.

It's an easy enough mistake for a newer jumper (or one who doesn't pack for themselves much) to make.

I've seen this a handful of times for that reason exactly.

Cheers,
Travis

[theonlyski 3]

wolfriverjoe

The only time I've seen this happen is when they don't pull the cat-eye below the ring.

It's an easy enough mistake for a newer jumper (or one who doesn't pack for themselves much) to make.

I agree. I can't imagine this happening with a properly stowed toggle.

Hell, ya may actually help their openings by pointing this out!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JeffCa 0]

Rigger at my DZ caught me packing the brakes without pulling the cat eye through the ring. He warned me this could happen if I forgot. I guess he was right.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[councilman24 37]

I suggested the possibility of setting the brake above the ring but he doesn't think he did that. I think he must have. The other thing I saw once was someone who set the brake below the ring but then put the nose of the toggle through the ring! This would allow the brake line to slip off the nose and release. The guy I found doing it had been doing it for a few hundred jumps.

The guy with the rig in question denies doing that either.

Anybody with other ideas? I think they had to be set above the ring.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[holie 0]

wolfriverjoe

The only time I've seen this happen is when they don't pull the cat-eye below the ring.

It's an easy enough mistake for a newer jumper (or one who doesn't pack for themselves much) to make.

Have seen that a lot of times with student and (lowtime) jumpers...

[caldwellbuilder 0]

Tell the guy to always test his brakes before putting the toggle ends under the hoods. If he does the toggles will instantly release if the cat's eye is on the wrong side of the ring.

[Quagmirian 40]

caldwellbuilder

Tell the guy to always test his brakes before putting the toggle ends under the hoods. If he does the toggles will instantly release if the cat's eye is on the wrong side of the ring.

That doesn't work with some setups. You can pull really quite hard and it won't come off.

[councilman24 37]

Already told him to test them. Hopefully he'll at least notice. One more step that will focus attention on the brakes.

I couldn't come up with any other scenario but wanted to ask.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Hellis 0]

councilman24

Already told him to test them. Hopefully he'll at least notice. One more step that will focus attention on the brakes.

I couldn't come up with any other scenario but wanted to ask.

I have heard if you don't push the toggles all the way up in the pocket the force the toggle beeing pulled up with can damage the pocket.
But there seems to be damage on the lower pocket too?

[Remster 26]

wolfriverjoe

The only time I've seen this happen is when they don't pull the cat-eye below the ring.

It's an easy enough mistake for a newer jumper (or one who doesn't pack for themselves much) to make.

yep... I've done it once many moons ago. Combination of being new-ish, and distracted when stowing the brakes. At least it was a symmetrical error in both mine, and that guy's situation.

Remster

[stayhigh 2]

set the breaks before you pack??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[irishrigger 32]

Hi Terry,

My first impression is what everyone else has said. did the customer show you how he releases the Brakes, i know you have to be extremly strong to do this, but could he be trying to release the toggles by pulling the upwards by any chance?
another idea maybe, are they the correct toggles for the rig and risers? could someone have swapped in an incorrect set that are the wrong size maybe?

Blue and safe skies

Rodger

[betzilla 56]

Quote

Ideas? I can fix it but need to figure out what to tell the guy to prevent it.

only way that happens is brakes set incorrectly. He'll deny it (they always do), but that's the deal. Be gentle and remind him that everybody makes mistakes :)

[councilman24 37]

I'll point him to this thread!

I agree and have already discussed with him the only way I know for this to happen is setting it above the ring. I've already discussed pulling hard on the brake line after set and agree that it may still not slip.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. He is stowing the extra line in the elastic keeper.

I'll sew them up and well talk about it some more,

right Ryan?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 598]

jumpsracer

What Wolfriverjoe said.

[packing_jarrett 0]

improper packing will definitely ruin your risers but this issue is common with mirage risers. I see this issue all the time with our RTS student rigs. my theory is the keeper(hood) is too tight and too close to the guide ring.

edit: when I repair I do an over-sew with at least 2 stitches off the edge of the keeper

Na' Cho' Cheese

[dpreguy 14]

What she said.

Yup, they always deny it.

I fix it, then send them with a line drawing picture I got somewhere - probably an old main packing instruction page - of a properly stowed brake line. Below the guide ring. Just handing it to them embarrasses them enough to ( I hope) remind them.

[pchapman 275]

packing_jarrett

I see this issue all the time with our RTS student rigs. my theory is the keeper(hood) is too tight and too close to the guide ring.

To restate:
In other words, the geometry is such that when the brake line pulls tight, pulling the toggle slightly upwards until the ring is taut on its attachment tape, it will already have 'bottomed out' in the keepers (either at tip or base or both), applying stress to them. The keepers are therefore too low on the riser relative to the ring.

[jurgencamps 0]

This weekend, during a linecheck, I saw that a student packed one brake okay. The other brake was stowed wrong. The student had already more than 20 packjobs.

[betzilla 56]

I did that to myself a couple years ago, after hundreds of main pack jobs and several years working in a rigging loft. It's a very easy mistake to make if you're the least bit distracted. Even easier for a new jumper who may not really understand WHY brakes are set the way they are.

If the person is repeatedly doing it wrong, that's a pretty bad sign. But every jumper will space out and do it wrong now and then, I think. It's good to keep in mind that anyone can make a mistake

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

Ideas? I can fix it but need to figure out what to tell the guy to prevent it.

Terry, We had a lot of this happening when we first came out with the hood. I am attaching 2 photos; one is correct and one is wrong as is indicated in the title. I direct your attention to the one which is wrong. It has a RED arrow pointing to the conflict location which I see as the root cause. Note the actual steering line is crossing the riser from it's point of origin at the eye on the RIGHT side of the toggle under the toggle nose and up the left side. When the riser and the steering line load the steering line is forced to cross back across the riser, under the toggle, cutting the hood from bottom to top.
[inline Toggle_Stow_Wrong.jpg]
The admonition to the user is to assure the steering line doesn't cross under the toggle nose and is routed so that it goes straight up to the canopy from the toggle.
[inline Toggle_Stow_Correct.jpg]