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puppychicken

New discounted stock Wings container for first rig?

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I tried searching and didn't see anything that really addressed my issue so hopefully somebody can offer some insight here. I'm thinking about getting a new stock Wings container for 40% off retail for my first rig. It would end up being about $1700 after all the options I want. I've been looking for used gear for the past month or so, and so far it seems like I have two options: sacrifice things that I want OR pay close to new prices for a used rig with the features I want. These are my main thoughts that I'd like to hear your guys' opinions on:

While I'd rather spend less on used gear, I can afford to get parts of my rig new. I'd like to buy something that will keep its resale value fairly well though. Will this 40% discount help with that, or are these sales pretty typical?

If I sit around waiting for the perfect used gear to come along, I'll spend a lot of money on rentals. I could easily spend $500 or more on rentals in a month, which could be the difference between a new vs. used container.

I'm also not sure if it's worth it to buy a new rig that isn't custom fit. If I buy new, I definitely plan on using the container for the next two or three hundred jumps at least, and I wouldn't want to spend that much on something that doesn't fit almost perfectly. I could also pay $200 more to get one custom made, but the wait time kind of defeats the purpose of getting something soon to cut down on rental costs.


Any input on these (and anything I haven't thought of) is appreciated!

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puppychicken

I tried searching and didn't see anything that really addressed my issue so hopefully somebody can offer some insight here. I'm thinking about getting a new stock Wings container for 40% off retail for my first rig. It would end up being about $1700 after all the options I want. I've been looking for used gear for the past month or so, and so far it seems like I have two options: sacrifice things that I want OR pay close to new prices for a used rig with the features I want. These are my main thoughts that I'd like to hear your guys' opinions on:

While I'd rather spend less on used gear, I can afford to get parts of my rig new. I'd like to buy something that will keep its resale value fairly well though. Will this 40% discount help with that, or are these sales pretty typical?

If I sit around waiting for the perfect used gear to come along, I'll spend a lot of money on rentals. I could easily spend $500 or more on rentals in a month, which could be the difference between a new vs. used container.

I'm also not sure if it's worth it to buy a new rig that isn't custom fit. If I buy new, I definitely plan on using the container for the next two or three hundred jumps at least, and I wouldn't want to spend that much on something that doesn't fit almost perfectly. I could also pay $200 more to get one custom made, but the wait time kind of defeats the purpose of getting something soon to cut down on rental costs.


Any input on these (and anything I haven't thought of) is appreciated!



If it is stock then it is unlikely you can get all the options (and only the options) that you want. They are already built and no further customization is available.

You are probably overrating how "custom" the custom fit rig is. Get measured for a new one and see what the MLW and yoke you need and that will be as custom as you are ever going to get.

I believe the lead time for a custom wings rig is only ~5 weeks if that is what you want.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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AFAIK, the 40% off stock Wings rigs runs often enough that you shouldn't worry about rushing to get it.

The 40% is off the base price, not the options (I believe), just in case your total price was based on 40% off the options too.

Wings are nice rigs. If you are going to get it in the 170/190 range, then that is the main market area so will hold value better than other sizes.

If cheaper perfect used gear + likely cost of rental gear while waiting = cost of stock new, then I'd say go for stock new.
Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

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You haven't filled out your profile but I assume you have few jumps. You don't know what functional options you want. Cosmetic options are just that. Lower your expectations and get a good used rig without the cosmetic options and with most of the functional options. I.don't believe any newbie should by new.

Often the discounts don't apply to options even if you can get them on your stock wings.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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councilman24

Lower your expectations and get a good used rig without the cosmetic options and with most of the functional options. I don't believe any newbie should by new.



Besides the difficulty of packing a new ZP canopy, most of the arguments I've heard against newbies buying new are financial, and are based on the assumption that more expensive gear means fewer jumps. Not everybody is in the same situation financially, so if one can afford it and understands the depreciation issue, why not?

However, I did what you're suggesting and got a no-frills container, just new. The Shadow Racer and the Rigging Innovations Genera are entry-level options that are custom-fitted to the buyer's body and canopies, and are very affordable.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Why not? I guess I'm cheap.;)

Why buy a new rig that's going to take a beating as you learn to land, that's going to be the wrong container size in a year or two, that your not familiar with and may not be the rig you finally decide you prefer, that may not have the options you ultimately.decide you want.

If you can pay new prices while your learning those things fine. But I don't want the money someone has in a new rig to keep them from changing rigs.for.their next canopy . How many times have had to tell people here and elsewhere no you really can't put that 135 in the rig that had your 220 in it.

Buy a new.rig.to keep.the gear manuf. In business. I'm sure not. The only thing I have newer than 1997 is a cypres.:)
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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... I'd like to buy something that will keep its resale value fairly well though. ...

...................................................................................

Why do young jumpers worry so much about resale value????
Parachutes are like cars. Both have a "bath-tub" shaped value curve. Most rigs lose 30% value the first time you jump it. Then the value is stable for about a decade, then value drops.

That 40% discount will equal and "hit" you take trying to resell that gear anytime soon.

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As I'm new to the sport as well, I went with a new Wings container. Due to me being a bigger guy. Finding decent used gear has been a trouble for me. Rental prices were killing me, and some of the harnesses at the dz didn't fit me properly except for one. And well if some other guy was jumping it I would have to wait. Less loads and well more money on jumping. I had a great experience customizing my rig and got the quilted padding for my legs and shoulders. I've jumped it twice now and the thing fits like a glove it was relatively affordable I spent the extra money and got the boost system (RSL) If I was to buy a vector or javelin I was looking at about 1500.00 more in price not to mention going from a 5 to 6 week shipping date but to a 3 or 4 month wait for a new container. I love my new rig, and as to downsizing etc I'm in no hurry at this moment and will probably be jumping this rig for a while as to I only get to jump once a week about 5 to 6 times that one day. Like I said I can't give too much advice as to Im new and not seasoned like some of the other guys on here. But just thought I would let you know about my experience with wings so far, and as to why I went new. Everybodies situation is different and I think I made the right choice in my situation. Hope this helps a little and if any questions about the Wings I'll try my best to answer. Blue Skies

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Hollywood5581

If I was to buy a vector or javelin I was looking at about 1500.00 more in price not to mention going from a 5 to 6 week shipping date but to a 3 or 4 month wait for a new container.



Current wait time for a new Vector is 8 months, according to their website. Absolutely ridiculous. Check this post from 2008 from UPT staff about the (then current) wait time of 20 weeks and how he couldn't wait to get it back down to 8-12 weeks. 6 years later, and it's much worse.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3255381#3255381

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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I had a plan and colour scheme for a Vector when I was getting my first gear, but I changed to a different container when I had a long think about the wait time. I do not buy that there is so much extra value in a Vector that we should wait up to 9 times longer to get one (wait time at that time was 9 months).

In the post I linked to above, the UPT guy was kinda mocking other companies about the reason they can make a rig so quickly must be that nobody wants one, and that if you want one from UPT, you have to wait longer because they're so good. That could be it, but it's also likely mis-management. They must have been slowly falling behind on their orders for a very long time (a decade or more?) to get to where they are now, and failed to do what was necessary to keep up. It is theoretically possible for the most popular rig in the world to have the shortest wait times, if they have the production capacity and they're properly managed.

Then again, here in Japan, people feel that if the line is longer, it must be a better product. People lined up for 3 hours to get a Krispy Kreme donut instead of a donut from a "regular" shop. The more the huge lines were on the news, the more people lined up. If skydivers are the same, then the enormous wait time could be a good marketing tactic.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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I've got close to 700 jumps and bought a Shadow Racer maybe a hundred jumps ago... It's cheap ($1,500), took about a month to get, and has everything I need to skydive. RI makes a rig that's similar in price. Mine outta last me at least another 1,000+ jumps. Might want to consider them as an option.
Woot Woot!

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Damn, good point there Jeff. I didn't know the wait time was that long. Makes my early reference of their wait time sound better. However I do like my wings container. When I eventually downsize at a much later date. I may go with wings again. So far so good, but we'll see after a hundred jumps or so. Status quo could change lol.

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councilman24

Lower your expectations and get a good used rig without the cosmetic options and with most of the functional options. I.don't believe any newbie should by new.



Well… there can be very good reasons.
cavete terrae.

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puppychicken

I tried searching and didn't see anything that really addressed my issue so hopefully somebody can offer some insight here. I'm thinking about getting a new stock Wings container for 40% off retail for my first rig. It would end up being about $1700 after all the options I want. I've been looking for used gear for the past month or so, and so far it seems like I have two options: sacrifice things that I want OR pay close to new prices for a used rig with the features I want. These are my main thoughts that I'd like to hear your guys' opinions on:

While I'd rather spend less on used gear, I can afford to get parts of my rig new. I'd like to buy something that will keep its resale value fairly well though. Will this 40% discount help with that, or are these sales pretty typical?

If I sit around waiting for the perfect used gear to come along, I'll spend a lot of money on rentals. I could easily spend $500 or more on rentals in a month, which could be the difference between a new vs. used container.

I'm also not sure if it's worth it to buy a new rig that isn't custom fit. If I buy new, I definitely plan on using the container for the next two or three hundred jumps at least, and I wouldn't want to spend that much on something that doesn't fit almost perfectly. I could also pay $200 more to get one custom made, but the wait time kind of defeats the purpose of getting something soon to cut down on rental costs.


Any input on these (and anything I haven't thought of) is appreciated!



You have identified at least two issues that were discussed in a "Buy vs Rent" thread here. First issue--cost of rental vs cost of buy. Second issue--cost of used vs cost of new. Most DZs rent gear for about $25 a jump. If you use that number it would take a looooong time to to justify buying a new rig at about $6500.00. BUT--that is not the real deal. While it is true that you are likely to put a few hundred jumps on a rig before you start to look at downsizing--it's what that rig actually costs you for that period of time and what you are likely to get for it when you sell it. Used prices in the classified section here are, IMO, nuts. Saw a seven year old Sabre 2 with numerous patches, holes, steering lines needing replacing and 500 jumps with an asking price of about $1500. Huh? That being said, it's a big advantage to someone who buys new today and sells in two years. I will estimate that if you pay $6500 for a new rig today you can probably get $5500 for it in two years providing you don't destroy it. So--you lose a thousand bucks--BUT--at $25.00 a jump for rentals--that's 40 jumps on heavily used, one size fits none gear that might or might not be available when you want it.

Now---as to used vs new. I too have looked high and low for the four components that make up a rig. H+C, main, reserve and AAD. I really don't give a rat's ass about the frills (pinstripes, etc,) --but I sure do care about the fit of the harness--and, of course, the main and reserve tray sizes for the size canopies I need.
After waiting nearly a year and trying to find the ideal used rig (or even something close to it) I gave up. I ordered a new H+C and reserve but held back on ordering a new main preferring to demo a few different canopies first. As luck would have it, an almost new canopy (50 jumps and inspected by the manufacturer) in the type and size I wanted came on the market at a good price (about $400 off the new dealer price) so I bought it. Sooo...........harness and container price came in at about $2200, reserve at just about $1000.00 and main at about $1700. Total so far--just under $5K. It looks like I will buy a new AAD (probably a Vigil) and I found a dealer who sells it for $1000.00. So--$6K for all intents and purposes, brand new stuff made to fit me. I anticipate making at least 100 jumps from July to September this year alone and at least the same number come January to March next year. I don't anticipate selling the gear for at least two or three years. If I lose $1K or so on the resale I am still waaay ahead of it.

I looked into the 40% off deal with Wings stuff. I think Wings gear is as good as any out there although they are generally known as a "B list" manufacturer. However, think of it the same way as buying a new car--the base price is attractive--but--add in the goodies like stainless, cut in lats, collapsible pc, RSL, spacer foam, hackey handle, hook knife, hip rings, etc. (all of which are not part of the 40% discount off the retail MSRP) and you end up with a rig costing almost the same (or more) as some other manufacturers "A list" rigs (with a higher re-sale value) with most or all of the goodies already there. The only real advantage that I can see is that you can have the rig in a week or three vs 6 to 12 weeks for a custom rig.

To those who scoff at buying new--well--if y'all found really good, safe used gear that fits at a really good price--great. Unfortunately, not all of us are able to do that.

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JeffCa

In the post I linked to above, the UPT guy was kinda mocking other companies about the reason they can make a rig so quickly must be that nobody wants one, and that if you want one from UPT, you have to wait longer because they're so good. That could be it, but it's also likely mis-management.



I don't think it's right to ASSume that their lineup is as a result of mis-management. I own a Vector and a Javelin and I'd have no issues buying a Wings. They're all quality rigs.

Some offer features that others do not. My own personal priorities bias me toward some of the items that UPT offers. R&D, experience, features, testing budget, even the quality of the manuals are all things that come with being the top level. Just because they're king of the hill doesn't mean it's without a reason.

-Michael

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hackish

***In the post I linked to above, the UPT guy was kinda mocking other companies about the reason they can make a rig so quickly must be that nobody wants one, and that if you want one from UPT, you have to wait longer because they're so good. That could be it, but it's also likely mis-management.



I don't think it's right to ASSume that their lineup is as a result of mis-management. I own a Vector and a Javelin and I'd have no issues buying a Wings. They're all quality rigs.

Some offer features that others do not. My own personal priorities bias me toward some of the items that UPT offers. R&D, experience, features, testing budget, even the quality of the manuals are all things that come with being the top level. Just because they're king of the hill doesn't mean it's without a reason.

-Michael

I didn't assume anything. I said it could just be because they're the best, but it also could LIKELY be mis-management. If you're the best, and you have tons of orders coming in, slowly falling further and further behind in wait times, then management should do something about that. They might be getting some orders with the mystique of a long wait, but they're also driving lots of others away, and I'd bet the latter is a bigger number than the former. The guy in the UPT post wrote 6 years ago that they were looking at expanding facilities to counter their 20-week wait time. I don't believe that it takes 6 years to open another location, bring on extra shifts, or take some other action to increase production capacity. My strong suspicion is that for whatever reason, they didn't want to (ie. afraid the rush or orders wouldn't be sustained)

If somebody knows the real story about how they got to a 32-week wait time over the course of what appears to be a decade, please enlighten us.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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