Re: [drae] Condolence thread for Dublin

[DeWitt 0]

Bob Holler was killed at a boogie on March 17, 2007, when Danny Paige, an S&TA, initiated a 270-degree hook turn into air crowded with skydivers and slammed into Bob. Bob and Danny both died from injuries sustained from the initial impact of bodies under canopy.
Avoidable death of the innocent by hook turn has got to stop! What will it take to change the skydiving culture so that a hook turn in a crowded area is condemned rather than applauded?
Danny did the hook turn intentionally; no one would try to say he did it accidentally, that he was unaware of the number of jumpers on his load and at the boogie, or that he didn’t know the risk of collision he created by not flying the established pattern at an increased ground speed with an accelerated rate of descent. I’m sure Danny figured he’d whip right through the maze, figured he’d get away with it, like a shooter thinking he could fire through the crowd for attention. I bet that Danny bet he was up to the risk, but he didn’t discuss any of that with Bob first. I’m sure he didn’t aim at Bob or mean to kill him.
But I write about intentions, responsibility, and consequences.
I’m sorry Danny died; I jumped with him a number of times over the years and he was good. But I’m furious that he killed my friend, Bob Holler, through an intentional act that could be viewed as criminal.
If I intentionally drive my car onto a crowded sidewalk and kill someone, I’d be arrested for manslaughter even though I plead, “I didn’t mean to hurt anyone.” In Florida, manslaughter is defined as a death caused by the culpable negligence of the defendant; the jury instruction goes on to define the criminal act of “culpable negligence” as follows:
“Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence. But culpable negligence is more than a failure to use ordinary care toward others. In order for negligence to be culpable, it must be gross and flagrant. Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing reckless disregard of human life, or of the safety of persons exposed to its dangerous effects, or such an entire want of care as to raise a presumption of a conscious indifference to consequences, or which shows wantonness or recklessness, or a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public, or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights.”
“A reckless disregard of the safety of persons… a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights” sounds like legalese for doing a hook turn into crowded air space.
Don’t try to console me with “Bob died doing what he loved” because his death could have easily have been avoided and he could have loved skydiving for many more years. And certainly don’t add, “You take your chances when you skydive.” No, not all chances. Bob didn’t sanction someone using him as a target with complete indifference to Bob’s safety.
Danny can’t be arrested for manslaughter for he killed himself as well as Bob with a hook turn that could be described as a “reckless disregard of the safety of persons.” Danny didn’t mean to kill Bob, but he meant to hook turn, to look cool at the crowded drop zone.
At one point, deaths associated with DUI’s were viewed only as “sad.” Many things, including the force of MADD, changed that culture and now death by DUI is not accepted with a cluck and “He didn’t mean to,” but is strenuously prosecuted in criminal court. Though the drunk driver didn’t mean to kill the six year old, he is held criminally responsible because he meant to drink and drive.
On the civil side of legal matters, bar owners are held financial liable if they serve drinks to a drunk who then drives and kills another. Could the DZO be similarly liable for failure to implement and strictly enforce a hook turn policy? (For example, hook turns only allowed in a designated and isolated area of the DZ, the first hook turn in violation gets you grounded for awhile, and the second gets you evicted from the DZ with perhaps a website identifying offenders to other DZO’s). DZO’s, cover your butt and save a life -- post a sign that says, “B.o.B. – Because of Bob, we won’t tolerate hook turns except in isolated, designated areas.”
The reality is, many DZO’s wink at hook turns. Often those doing hook turns are the “sky gods”, those who love to impress the crowds, those who have the experience and money – in other words, those the DZO’s don’t want to alienate by separating them from the oooohs of the spectators as they swoop in.
Will it take a lawsuit to stop this useless killing of innocent people? How many avoidable deaths are enough to create a change in the culture of skydiving? I, for one, think there have been enough, and B.o.B. – Because of Bob – it’s time to stop hook turns everywhere except in designated, isolated areas.
There are those who think it’s their right to hook turn in front of people. There are those who read this will say, “I can do hook turns safely. It’s my choice. I can handle it.” Danny said the same thing, and he killed my friend, Bob.
OK, so DZO’s have a major responsibility in fixing this problem. But what can you the jumper do? When you go to Manifest, ask if they have a hook turn policy; ask how it’s enforced. Then tell them “B.o.B – Because of Bob, I refuse to jump at a DZ that tolerates hook turns outside a designated, isolated area.” Take your gear and your money and walk away if the DZO doesn’t enforce a policy. It’s time to stop it now – Because of Bob.

[DeWitt 0]

A retired Florida Circuit Judge wrote the above post by me, and what’s sad is she knew both jumpers quite well. It’s vicious how I FEEL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. Danny Page was also a very good friend on mine having made a lot of jumps with him over the years.
Danny killed an innocent bystander. Yes Bob was in the air but did he choose to do a hook turn? Hell No. Isn’t it time we get the DZO’s to get involved in protecting our rights to clean airspace. I know there will be a lot of (listen to that fucking asshole rant) but if it were you who got hit by a sky god would it be any better knowing that a very experience skydiver caused your death? The point of this post is to push DZO’s into cleaning up what they allow at their drop zone as normal operations. There was a good point brought in the last post. BOB-Because of Bob, it’s simple, tell your DZO it’s time to take a stand.
DeWitt Barker
D8147

[ScarpuT 0]

Hi,

I am Bob's little sister, Terri. Thank you for making my anger valid. I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my head around the thought that I will never see him again. Are you going to be in Deland Friday? If so, I would like to meet you. Would you have me paged or call me on my cell phone? 775-240-1605.

[ScarpuT 0]

Hi,

I am Bob's little sister, Terri. Thank you for making my anger valid. I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my head around the thought that I will never see him again. Are you going to be in Deland Friday? If so, I would like to meet you. Would you have me paged or call me on my cell phone? 775-240-1605.

[flskydvr 0]

DeWitt, I totally agree with you. We both lost a good friend (Bob). What I regret the most is that I didn't get to see Bob since his retirement ceremony that I attended. Didn't know Danny that well, but he will be missed too. Hope changes do happen and get enforced. I'll be in Deland this Friday.

Jose Santiago
D-25944
Crestview, FL

[upndownshop 0]

DeWitt

I was wondering when those legal issues would be considered? I think you have nailed it and the BoB is a great idea.

For whatever it is worth, If you dont mind I would like to put some/all of the above post on a page on the SkyFest website. We have an educational section on the site. SkyFest is just a boogie and the website needs help, but we do cater to alot of young jumpers at our event so I think it would have an impact on them. If you have any suggestions, comments, do's or donts I would love to hear them. I didnt know Danny that well, but I attended Bob's retirement and saw him fequently across the country in the last few years.
If you would rather see something different or nothing at all, then please guide me.

When I saw Terri's post immediately after yours, it was hard to hold back .

Take care and godbless all of you.

J
www.skyfestboogie.com

I came back and edited this because a thought hit me. Maybe this should be sent to to Parachutist? I am sure one of the mag's would print it.

[jlmiracle 7]

B.o.B is an awesome idea. It just sucks so bad he had to die for to "inform" the rest of the skydiving community.

DZO's need to implement rules and enforce them.

When I particpated in 2002 JFTC, we were told NO HOOK TURNS, yet at least 2 participants willingly and purposely did hook turns in the main landing area and I overheard them laughing and giggling because they got away with it and kept getting away with it. That type of mentality is what killed your friend Bob. That type of mentality will continue to kill our friends.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

It’s vicious how I FEEL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. Danny Page was also a very good friend on mine having made a lot of jumps with him over the years.

Is this incident the 1st time, in your opinion, or in even your experience with Danny then, or that you have ever witnessed him (or not) cutting a 270 or otherwise high-perf landing through a crowd?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skinnyshrek 0]

Quote

Quote

It’s vicious how I FEEL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. Danny Page was also a very good friend on mine having made a lot of jumps with him over the years.

Is this incident the 1st time, in your opinion, or in even your experience with Danny then, or that you have ever witnessed him (or not) cutting a 270 or otherwise high-perf landing through a crowd?

I have seen Danny on numerous occasions doing this same move. Arrogance got the better of him

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[porpoishead 5]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have seen Danny on numerous occasions doing this same move. Arrogance got the better of him


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




it got the better of us all, it is truly a sad loss for the sport.
I have myself seen a jumper engaged in a HP landing nearly take out my friend and AFFI, and then not even acknowledge the situation afterwards. this by itself could indicate that he never saw him due to tunnel-vision, or didn't give a shit if he did. either way I was highly pissed off about it, but did nothing and said nothing, because I figured that it wasn't my beef, and I did not wan't to create any animosity at the DZ.

other times I've heard certain jumpers talking shit, say they like a congested pattern when they hook it in because it gives them something to steer around. it bothered me a great deal, again I said and did nothing, besides who am I just some FNG.

if sure that I am not the only jumper that has been in similar situation...

where does this leave us all????

is sticking to the code of silence the correct course of action???

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[mouth 0]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


is sticking to the code of silence the correct course of action???

I hope you don't honestly believe that. If we as jumpers don't step up to the plate and take responsibility for our actions to include pointing out potential hazzards who is? Certainly not the public or God forbid the FAA.

Ignoring a problem does not make it go away...it aggrivates it. Ignoring a dangerous situation does not make it less dangerous.

THINK PEOPLE

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[squarecanopy 0]

Alex,
I can really identify with everything you said. I'm another FNG and have not wanted to stir the pot because of that, but it is scary some of the stuff that is going down and this last run of "double fatality" posts here is just ENOUGH. I don't want to die skydiving, but I really don't want to splat because somebody hook turns into me. I will exercise my meager dollar power and go to another drop zone if my home DZ does not want to enforce a no hook turn policy. BOB!!

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[ScarpuT 0]

I'm Terri, Bob's little sister. I'm on Dewitt's soap box and I'm asking all of you for help. The B.O.B. rule is great. How do we get the drop zones to impose that rule? all of you divers out there make sure it gets done by taking your gear and your money and walking away if the drop zone doesn't have a B.O.B. rule.

Everyone said Bob was the safest guy out there. Then let this be his legacy. The B.O.B. rule. All of you out there. let me see your actions speak liouder than your words. Help me and Dewittt and others make the B.O.B. rule a reality.

terri

[hukturn 0]

While I regret not knowing Bob since I have read so much about him, I am sure that everyone’s comments have only scratched the surface of his personality. But, I have known Danny for about 15 years. March the 17th will be a hallowed day for me. It marks St. Patrick’s Day, the anniversary of my sobriety and now the death of my friend. Please do not misunderstand my post but I am not in total agreement with your statements.
I believe that we need to take greater responsibility for our actions. Implementing more regulations does not fix the problem. By comparison, I am equally sick of hearing stories about won lawsuits over spilled hot coffee. I am equally sick of having to wait for extended periods in Airport security. We have sacrificed our freedom as a country by introducing frivolous laws and awarding people for their lack of common sense.
So, let's just say that we segregate swoopers from non-swoopers. That does not eliminate the problem. This can still happen when two swoopers collide in a remote area. It can still happen when people simply get tunnel vision. There are ALOT of professional swoopers these days. And, I am referring to professionals who attend swoop festivals along with those who are non-competitive but very accomplished. But accidents do happen. Should we also segregate jump loads by experience? We all know that students are not able to react to problems as quickly and they may fail to pull and collide with my canopy while in freefall. What about the jumper who pulls high below me and places my life in needless jeopardy? While I do not like these thoughts, they are a very real part of my existence and I accept that risk. I did not sign a DZ waiver that said they would protect me from anything nor anyone. And I accept that responsibility and I accept the very real possibility of death due to someone else’s mistake.
I, too, have been skydiving for a long time. I evolved through static lines into accuracy competitions into RW and swooping. I take a more reserved approach these days. But, I still like to jump without a helmet (thought not as often), I still do not use an AAD and I still enjoy many of the freedoms that the sport represents. That is my choice. I can spend my money rock climbing, motorcycle riding, BASE jumping or anyplace I choose. But, the possibilities for human error will always be present…my error or errors of those which may affect me.
I am not condoning negligence. I just do not think that more rules are what we need in our community nor in our country. I, too, am frustrated with the growing needless fatalities. Remember, I lost my friend, too. But I believe that true awareness and training is the answer...I do not believe in more rules. It is easy to take this reply out of context but please do not. I love the sport, I love my friends/family, I love my life and I love freedom. And I hope that nobody tries to take away any of these. But life is all about balance. Living in fear is not really living.

[tbrown 26]

These legal arguments are a chilling reason why we MUST regulate ourselves as a sport. These are real and valid arguments for a civil tort or criminal prosecution with serious prison time (not jail time, prison time, as in several years). A waiver might hold up if somebody hooks themself into the ground, or blows their EPs and wraps up both their canopies. Or even buys it in a plane crash on takeoff.

But when someone's actions cause the death of another person, who is viewed as an "innocent" in the eyes of the authorities, all bets are off and a waiver won't be worth the ashes and smoke left over after it's burned. Hell, for starters the authorities could close a DZ indefinitely until they're satisfied with their investigation, especially if they feel a crime was committed. And you know how our "public servants" love to rant about things they know nothing about in front of TV cameras. New laws to "protect the public" from "dangerous killer skydivers" (and of course not the "resonsible" ones, if there are any...) are just the ticket for some useless, philandering, alcoholic legislators to pick up a few more votes in November.

I hadn't even thought about the "barkeep's liability" aspect of a DZO. Even if they could fight that off on the strength of a waiver, the stress and expense of a few legal battles would kill anyone's enthusiam for wanting to stay in the business. The dropzone in Missouri that had the Otter crash last summer had ALL their club owned gear confiscated under a court order pending the litigation one of the families brought.

So I'm not making any blanket or knee jerk proposals to "do this" or "ban that". And as I've said in some other threads, the recent loss of Bob and Danny, combined with the string of other collision fatalities in Arizona and Texas have got us all pretty hot under the collar. We need to calm down, we need to get rational about this, and we need to realize that we ALL stand to lose a lot if we don't clearly demonstrate that we're doing something to correct a bad situation in our sport.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[waltappel 1]

Quote

I believe that we need to take greater responsibility for our actions.

Two thoughts come to mind. First, I think the overwhelming majority of jumpers have been taking resonsibility for our actions. No changes needed.

Second, I think we need to stop our *inactions*--the tolerance of behaviors that put others at risk.

Quote

Implementing more regulations does not fix the problem.

No, but it gives a good basis for either getting the Danny Pages of our sport either under control or getting rid of them.

Quote

So, let's just say that we segregate swoopers from non-swoopers. That does not eliminate the problem. This can still happen when two swoopers collide in a remote area. It can still happen when people simply get tunnel vision. There are ALOT of professional swoopers these days. And, I am referring to professionals who attend swoop festivals along with those who are non-competitive but very accomplished. But accidents do happen.

The non-swoopers are an overwhelming majority. I think separating the swoopers from the other jumpers protects the overwhelming majority of jumpers. I don't see how that's even a little bit bad or unnecessary. Accidents do happen, but there is no way we should continue to allow high-speed canopy collisions to happen because of high-speed traffic and low-speed traffic sharing the same airspace.

We all understand that canopy collisions are *not* in the exclusive realm of swoopers hitting slower canopies, but I think eliminating that as a possibility is a good thing. The carnage has got to stop.

Quote

Should we also segregate jump loads by experience? We all know that students are not able to react to problems as quickly and they may fail to pull and collide with my canopy while in freefall. What about the jumper who pulls high below me and places my life in needless jeopardy? While I do not like these thoughts, they are a very real part of my existence and I accept that risk. I did not sign a DZ waiver that said they would protect me from anything nor anyone. And I accept that responsibility and I accept the very real possibility of death due to someone else’s mistake.

There's a real difference between what might be termed an "honest mistake" and the kind of willful disregard of others' safety that we have seen. I think it's reasonable to assume the risk that other jumpers, because of inexperience or maybe just having a bad day, will screw up in a way that puts others at risk. I also think we need to draw a line between what is an error in judgement vs. an outlandish disregard for others' safety.

Quote

I, too, have been skydiving for a long time. I evolved through static lines into accuracy competitions into RW and swooping. I take a more reserved approach these days. But, I still like to jump without a helmet (thought not as often), I still do not use an AAD and I still enjoy many of the freedoms that the sport represents. That is my choice. I can spend my money rock climbing, motorcycle riding, BASE jumping or anyplace I choose. But, the possibilities for human error will always be present…my error or errors of those which may affect me.
I am not condoning negligence. I just do not think that more rules are what we need in our community nor in our country. I, too, am frustrated with the growing needless fatalities. Remember, I lost my friend, too. But I believe that true awareness and training is the answer...I do not believe in more rules. It is easy to take this reply out of context but please do not. I love the sport, I love my friends/family, I love my life and I love freedom. And I hope that nobody tries to take away any of these. But life is all about balance. Living in fear is not really living.

I share your frustration with the ever-tightening reigns present in our society but we need a culture change in our sport. We need more than just to be careful while the carnage is still fresh in our memories. We need permanent change and that change needs to be enforced because apparently, we have jumpers among us who think that respecting others' safety is something they don't need to be concerned about.

This is not a case of protecting people from themselves--we have way too much of that already in the world--this is a case of protecting jumpers from other jumpers and unfortunately, recent events have shown that we need that protection.

Walt

[kkeenan 13]

Quote

These legal arguments are a chilling reason why we MUST regulate ourselves as a sport. These are real and valid arguments for a civil tort or criminal prosecution with serious prison time...

There is legal precedent for this sort of thing, and it is very likely that someone could be found at fault in a wrongful-death lawsuit. And it's possible that a DZO could be seen as complicit if the hook-turner had been performing that way before with the DZO's (presumed) approval.

There was a case in Colorado in which someone skiing negligently was found responsible in a fatal accident. And in Canada, a jumper who deployed below someone and caused a collision was found to be at fault.

As has been said before, a lawsuit like this could ruin a DZ. Even the possibility of such a suit could drastically change the way DZs operate. People must be responsible for their actions. If you are clearly acting in an unsafe manner when something bad happens, it is no longer considered an "accident".

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[skinnyshrek 0]

Exactly Kevin. Showboating in Traffic killing someone is not an accident. All we can do is hopefully make traffic safer in the future. iF YOU SEE A SHOWBOATER THEN BAN HIM I WOULD SAY HER BUT WOMEN SEEM TO HAVE MORE SENSE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS. No longer can we say this kind of behaviour is an accident. If you know an idiot like this at your DZ then inform the DZo. If they don't do anything then change DZ's. You could be next

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

iF YOU SEE A SHOWBOATER THEN BAN HIM I WOULD SAY HER BUT WOMEN SEEM TO HAVE MORE SENSE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS.

apparently you didn't read my response earlier in the thread.

Granted the number of swoopers are mostly male, there are some females and well they like to showboat too and laugh and giggle cause they got away with it with 100+ other women in the air.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.