1 1
justme12001

MC-4/MC-5

Recommended Posts

justme12001

I was wondering if a MC-4/MC-5 would be TSO-d?

If I got my hands on one, would I legally be able to jump it from a civilian plane?



Everything you want to know about parachute jumping as far as the Feds are concerned

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_105-2E.pdf
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, none of the MT-1 series, MC-4 or MC-5 systems, or any individual component of the system, is TSO certified.

Further, any of the above mentioned parachute systems, being designed to open at 25,000" MSL, fall under the high altitude category.

In fact, as defined in § 105.3:
(1) Parachutes Manufactured under TSO-C23. This TSO prescribes the minimum
performance and QA standards for personnel parachutes that are carried aboard civil aircraft or
by skydivers for emergency use, including reserve parachutes used for intentional jumps. The
manufacturer must meet these standards before labeling its parachute or components as
complying with the TSO.
(2) Demilitarized or Military Surplus Parachutes. Military personnel-carrying parachutes (other than high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds) identified by military drawing
number, military order number, or any other military designation or specification. These
parachutes are often referred to as demilitarized or military surplus parachutes.


If you want to use the canopies as main, that's your call. Using the reserve in a sports environment is plain dangerous. The reserve is not designed to open with low altitude loss, like it would have to pass a TSO test, it's designed to withstand a deployment at high load and high altitude. Since there's no free lunch, that performance capability comes at a higher altitude loss when lightly loaded and at low altitude. Did I mention you probably have no history on the previous use and condition of use of this demilitarized equipment?

Just saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
propblast

It would seem that number 2 covers these systems. Am I wrong?



Advisory Circular 105-2E clearly covers this. An "approved" parachute assembly is one which has either a TSO or a military drawing number. The MC4/5 has the latter and is "approved" under part 105 as are it's sub-components if someone wanted to mix them with other TSO'd components so long as the certificated parachute rigger deems them "compatible". There are plenty of demilitarized MC-4/5 and MTi-XX's in use on civilian DZ's.

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you for the information on the reserve. I will definitely keep that in mind if I do decide to get one. Exactly what kind of altitude loss are we talking about?

My main interest in using one of these systems if for demos with large flags. So I wouldn't actually be in the "sport" environment, and they would potentially have a heavy load.

As far a being familiar with the gear...there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between them and a tandem rig. Other than the main handle being opposite the cut-away handle. I have jumped a MC1-1D that had the main handle in the same location. I'm sure there are some other small differences, but nothing that would be to hard to understand. I realize that they would have spring loaded pilot chutes, which I am very familiar with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GGGGIO


The reserve is not designed to open with low altitude loss, like it would have to pass a TSO test, it's designed to withstand a deployment at high load and high altitude.



It is a valid point to bring up, one that isn't often thought about.

Nevertheless, examination of military documents suggests that the situation is not entirely dire. For example, one US Field Manual on military freefall procedures using the MC-4 notes that the military Cypres is set for 1500 ft (in one mode), and during emergency procedures, to make the cutaway decision (on this RSL equipped rig) by 2000 ft. Another military document on the MC-4 system mentioned the reserve deployment altitude being 2000 to 25000 ft. In my brief search, I didn't see anything specifically about the time or height the reserve deployment was certificated to.

These sorts of minimum altitudes are not incompatible with modern sport skydiving, if special care is taken. That may include raising one's civilian AAD altitude, as well as having strict limits on breakoff and deployment altitude (that are actually pretty normal for the noobs these days). So while your warning is valuable, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is 'plain dangerous' to use such gear in the sport environment. Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Further, any of the above mentioned parachute systems, being designed to open at 25,000" MSL, fall under the high altitude category.



Quote

(2) Demilitarized or Military Surplus Parachutes. Military personnel-carrying parachutes (OTHER THAN high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds)



The question from the OP was regarding legality of using this system for sport jumping. GGGGIO's answer is clearly no. As well he gives a good reason why it's not a good idea to do so. Now we have some others stating more or less

"I'm doing it, and I see others doing it so it's alright"

Take a look at GGGGIO's profile. After you do that carefully consider who's internet advise you prefer to follow.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gowlerk

Quote

Further, any of the above mentioned parachute systems, being designed to open at 25,000" MSL, fall under the high altitude category.



***(2) Demilitarized or Military Surplus Parachutes. Military personnel-carrying parachutes (OTHER THAN high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds)



The question from the OP was regarding legality of using this system for sport jumping. GGGGIO's answer is clearly no. As well he gives a good reason why it's not a good idea to do so. Now we have some others stating more or less

"I'm doing it, and I see others doing it so it's alright"

Take a look at GGGGIO's profile. After you do that carefully consider who's internet advise you prefer to follow.

I understand where you are coming from but did you bother to read the FAA Circular? Advisory Circular 105-2E to be specific. Paragraph 13B2?

I think the FAA might be the advice(rule) might be the one most people are trying to follow.
Propblast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I worked at Para-Flite and we TSO"d the reserve under c23. It is essentially a MT-1X that the military tested and approved and gave it the military designation MC-4. However if it was used in the military it may be worn out the porosity needs to be checked. If it was unused surplus i'd have no qualms about jumping it. As a matter of fact I have many demo jumps using the MT-1X system.

GGGGIO

No, none of the MT-1 series, MC-4 or MC-5 systems, or any individual component of the system, is TSO certified.

Further, any of the above mentioned parachute systems, being designed to open at 25,000" MSL, fall under the high altitude category.

In fact, as defined in § 105.3:
(1) Parachutes Manufactured under TSO-C23. This TSO prescribes the minimum
performance and QA standards for personnel parachutes that are carried aboard civil aircraft or
by skydivers for emergency use, including reserve parachutes used for intentional jumps. The
manufacturer must meet these standards before labeling its parachute or components as
complying with the TSO.
(2) Demilitarized or Military Surplus Parachutes. Military personnel-carrying parachutes (other than high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds) identified by military drawing
number, military order number, or any other military designation or specification. These
parachutes are often referred to as demilitarized or military surplus parachutes.


If you want to use the canopies as main, that's your call. Using the reserve in a sports environment is plain dangerous. The reserve is not designed to open with low altitude loss, like it would have to pass a TSO test, it's designed to withstand a deployment at high load and high altitude. Since there's no free lunch, that performance capability comes at a higher altitude loss when lightly loaded and at low altitude. Did I mention you probably have no history on the previous use and condition of use of this demilitarized equipment?

Just saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I understand where you are coming from but did you bother to read the FAA Circular? Advisory Circular 105-2E to be specific. Paragraph 13B2?







Yes I did. That's exactly what is quoted here, and what GGGGIO quoted as well. The part that says......

(other than high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds)

Excludes the MC4/5 system as it is a high-altitude system according to GGGGIO, who's profile indicates that he works for the manufacturer of these systems. It is indicated that the reserve (which is identical to the main in the system) is not tested or designed to open with an altitude loss that is acceptable for an emergency parachute. So even though is does have a military identification number, it is in a class that is specifically excluded. But go ahead and use either of the canopies from the system as a main, just understand that neither can be considered a certificated parachute for use a a reserve or as an emergency parachute.


Here is a link to that circular:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_105-2E.pdf


But don't just take my word for it. I`m just rehashing what someone who works for Airborne Systems says about one of their past products. I don`t know for sure, he could be just foolin' around for all I know. Go ahead, jump whatever you can get away with. You'll probably be just fine. Really.

To put this in perspective, not TSO'd does not mean not safe. It's just an exploration of the original question about whether or not it's legal in the USA.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It would be legal, yes.

You would have to find one that has been de-milled (i.e. cut, damaged, etc.) or potentially "acquired" which opens a whole mess of things you don't want to fool with... After that you have to find a Master Rigger comfortable working on 80's gear, doing major mods/repairs (assuming you want a BOC installed and it has lines cut, canopy cut as is normal with de-milled gear). Once all that is done you have to look at why you want to jump a 60lb monster with a 360+ sq ft wing... If you are in the 300 lb club, or want a water rig for the one week of water jumps your DZ does every year, need to jump an 80 lb flag and don't want to invest in a tandem rig, etc. it might make sense. Otherwise it's just silly. No one will think you're cool because you have a "HALO" rig, they'll just be super pissed at how much room you take up on the airplane.

As far as the comment about it being designed for "high alts/loads and not safe for civil use"-I don't agree with that per se-but would say that opening a 360 sq ft reserve requires a wee bit more alt to ensure inflation. This is why the 1500A Cypres (Military) is designed to activate at 1500' instead of the normal alt for the Expert Cypres. Additionally-most folks jumping canopies of this type routinely pull at 4,000' to give the (usually) low experienced/non-current military jumper more time to make a decision and add some buffer for that higher activating Cypres. So-if you decide you want an MC4/5 AND you want an AAD, what is on the market is not compatible towards actually working in the event you install an Expert Cypres and expect to get a fully inflated reserve before you crater.

I wouldn't spend my money on one.

-Harry

FAA Sr Rigger, AFFI, TAN I, MFF JM
"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The extra altitude is primarily for low-experience soldiers. Most military jumpers only do a handful of jumps per year, because they have so many other skills to stay current on. Try to think of these deployment altitudes in terms of a civilian A certificate holder who is doing his first jump in the spring-time ... after laying on the couch all winter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that using this equipment in a normal skydiving environment is not wise, so you would be wiser using it as designed. Strap your ruck-sack, rifle and snowshoes on securely ... only jump from airplanes with large doors and plan to pull at 4,000 feet.

The latest civilian TSO standards allow extra time and extra altitude for personnel weighing more than 254 pounds. This is primarily to reduce opening shock on tandems, but is also relevant to military HALO jumpers with ruck-sack, rifle and snowshoes.
So I would not worry about an MT-1X opening slightly slower, rather I would just plan to pull at 4,000 feet.

If the original poster is planning to jump with a huge flag, he will need the extra altitude to deploy his flag etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE

***It would seem that number 2 covers these systems. Am I wrong?



Advisory Circular 105-2E clearly covers this. An "approved" parachute assembly is one which has either a TSO or a military drawing number. The MC4/5 has the latter and is "approved" under part 105 as are it's sub-components if someone wanted to mix them with other TSO'd components so long as the certificated parachute rigger deems them "compatible". There are plenty of demilitarized MC-4/5 and MTi-XX's in use on civilian DZ's.

Chuck

Thanks Chuck.
Propblast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
accumack

I worked at Para-Flite and we TSO"d the reserve under c23. It is essentially a MT-1X that the military tested and approved and gave it the military designation MC-4. However if it was used in the military it may be worn out the porosity needs to be checked. If it was unused surplus i'd have no qualms about jumping it. As a matter of fact I have many demo jumps using the MT-1X system.



Accumack,

I am just curious here. Say a canopy fails the porosity test. What could happen? Is it just not as good at holding air or are there other things that could potentially happen to the canopy under load?

Thanks,

David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xlh883

I am just curious here. Say a canopy fails the porosity test. What could happen? Is it just not as good at holding air or are there other things that could potentially happen to the canopy under load?



It's just going to descend faster, and not slow down as much when you flare to land. Expect hard landings. This is why jumpers retire old F-111 fabric canopies after about 800 jumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Main takes anywhere from 500-800ft to fully open. However, I have experienced 1K openings before. The reserve should open in less than 500ft. The minimum deployment altitude is 3500ft AGL based on cutaway decision altitude. All cutaways must be initiated by 2,000ft to avoid a dual canopy deployment after the 1500' threshold of the 1500A Mil Cypress. Both Reserve and Main are identical and use spring loaded pilot chutes increasing the risk of malfunction- the military has recognized this in the development of more recent systems.

An MC1-1D is a Static Line only Rig with a semi-steerable round canopy. The main deployment is the Universal S/L Snaphook. Your only ripcord is the Reserve handle mounted on you chest reserve (MRPS/T-10).

MC-4 is a good system for jumping a flag but be careful under high/funky wind conditions. If you can't put 300lbs under the canopy it gets unstable at low altitudes when high winds roll off bldgs or tree lines. Tandems are safe in those conditions because they weigh the canopy appropriately. Please acquire this system legally or the Feds will catch up to you quickly. I suggest you research the Emergency Procedures for the system and the 1500A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BENJAMIN.JOHNIS

The Main takes anywhere from 500-800ft to fully open. However, I have experienced 1K openings before. The reserve should open in less than 500ft. The minimum deployment altitude is 3500ft AGL based on cutaway decision altitude. All cutaways must be initiated by 2,000ft to avoid a dual canopy deployment after the 1500' threshold of the 1500A Mil Cypress. Both Reserve and Main are identical and use spring loaded pilot chutes increasing the risk of malfunction- the military has recognized this in the development of more recent systems.

An MC1-1D is a Static Line only Rig with a semi-steerable round canopy. The main deployment is the Universal S/L Snaphook. Your only ripcord is the Reserve handle mounted on you chest reserve (MRPS/T-10).

MC-4 is a good system for jumping a flag but be careful under high/funky wind conditions. If you can't put 300lbs under the canopy it gets unstable at low altitudes when high winds roll off bldgs or tree lines. Tandems are safe in those conditions because they weigh the canopy appropriately. Please acquire this system legally or the Feds will catch up to you quickly. I suggest you research the Emergency Procedures for the system and the 1500A.



The MC-4 can come in different configurations. The MT-1X is a 370 sq ft 7 cell and can be used as a main or a reserve. The MT-1S is a 270 sq ft 5 cell and can be used as both main and reserve.
The MC-4 can be a MT-1SS, MT-1XS or MT-1XX.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A MC1-1D is a Static Line only Rig with a semi-steerable round canopy. The main deployment is the Universal S/L Snaphook. Your only ripcord is the Reserve handle mounted on you chest reserve (MRPS/T-10).


I may have my nomenclature wrong...but, I'm pretty sure the canopy was MC1-1D(was a 35' steerable round) the rig may go by another name.

Either way, the rig was be set up for free fall, and the ripcord was located on the outside right shoulder.

My whole point was that handle location is almost identical to a tandem rig, with the exception of the main handle. And that I was familiar with and have used a rig with a handle located in that location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The MC-4 system comes in one, and one only configuration: freefall.
The MC-5 system can be converted between static line and freefall configuration.

Even though MC-4 and MC-5 in essence use the same canopy, while in use by the organizations that manage their configuration, they are used with one, and only one canopy, respectively the MC-4 (Army) and MC-5 (Navy). MC-5 canopy is main over main (used either as main or reserve).
MC-4 canopies are either a main (11-1-3518-0) or a reserve (11-1-3518-1) and do not interchange.

MT-1XX was an interim system prior to the MC-4 being adopted by the Army that uses MT-1X canopies
MT-1SS is a system that uses MT-1S as canopies
MT-1XS is a system that uses MT-1S as reserve and MT-1X as main

Out of all of these canopies the MT-1S is the only with TSO (C23b)

Claiming the MC-4/MC-5/MT-1XX are similar enough to the MT-1 canopy, their ancestor which was also certified by TSO, that you should have a warm and fuzzy feeling, IMHO, is misleading.

I agree with those that claim that, under particular conditions that allow for increased opening altitude, using these demilitarized systems/canopies is safe.
IMO "Under particular conditions of use" is enough to discourage me from deeming that parachute "generally" safe.

Unfortunately the regulations are crystal clear in stating that "high-altitude, high-speed, or ejection kinds" are exceptions that disqualify Demilitarized or Military Surplus Parachutes as approved parachutes as defined in § 105.3, regardless whether they have a military drawing number.

BENJAMIN.JOHNIS statement about reserve and main deployment systems being identical, using spring loaded PC thus increasing the risk of malfunction, leave me perplexed, unless I'm missing something, since all the systems discussed here use a free-bag in the reserve.

***The MC-4 can come in different configurations. The MT-1X is a 370 sq ft 7 cell and can be used as a main or a reserve. The MT-1S is a 270 sq ft 5 cell and can be used as both main and reserve.
The MC-4 can be a MT-1SS, MT-1XS or MT-1XX.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1