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pchapman

Vigil 2+ introduced

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vision

So still no speed mode for those with faster canopies?

I know someone that died while doing an AFF jump using a velo 79 I believe it was. The vigil fired during landing all within parameter.

It is a shame if they do not have a speed mode.

or do they?



I emailed Vigil to ask about this. The website lists the Xtreme mode. This is the response I got

"The vigil 2+ will be available with the Xtreme mode. This means not a multimode unit but only with the Xtreme mode and the only differences are: activation speed with 43m/s instead of the 35m/s in Pro mode and does not activate anymore below the 300ft instead of 150ft.



We stay at your disposal.



Best regards,





Edwin Bollaerts

Project Manager

[email protected]"

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SmokinJoeKS

If Vigil is going to charge the same price for having them change the battery as we can have it done now in the field, plus a few dollars for shipping, then there is no significant increase in the cost of ownership over the life of the AAD. On the other hand, if this battery change turns into a de facto inspection and recertification like that required by Cypres, and is priced accordingly, then the long-term cost of ownership (up to now a big selling point for Vigil) will increase more significantly.

Also unknown is the cost at the loft. If this turns into an inspection requiring the entire AAD to be removed and sent in, the rigger will have to charge more than if he can simply disconnect the main box (which contains the battery pack) and send only that in to Vigil.



Jenny at Vigil America informed me via e-mail that the battery price for the 2+ will be more than the Vigil 2, but that they are not charging for the battery change...just the price of the battery.

But my take is if they aren't "selling" Vigil 2+ batteries separately...than the price is whatever they want to charge for the battery/install. Not sure how you separate the 2 if they are doing all the work and have the battery. The price of both has to be factored into whatever price they set (which is currently unknown).

She did also say that Vigil doesn't have plans to certify/approve riggers or lofts or service centers to do the battery replacements.

Mike
ChutingStar.com

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chutingstar

Jenny at Vigil America informed me via e-mail that the battery price for the 2+ will be more than the Vigil 2, but that they are not charging for the battery change...just the price of the battery.

But my take is if they aren't "selling" Vigil 2+ batteries separately...than the price is whatever they want to charge for the battery/install. Not sure how you separate the 2 if they are doing all the work and have the battery. The price of both has to be factored into whatever price they set (which is currently unknown).

She did also say that Vigil doesn't have plans to certify/approve riggers or lofts or service centers to do the battery replacements.

Mike



Thanks, Mike, for the info. Since the Vigil 2+ manual indicates that its battery is the same part number as the Vigil 2 battery, it looks like they are just attempting to find an additional revenue stream. I guess we will find out how much more $$$ they want in about 10 years.

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SmokinJoeKS

Since the Vigil 2+ manual indicates that its battery is the same part number as the Vigil 2 battery, it looks like they are just attempting to find an additional revenue stream.



I don't think so. I think it's more a case of not wanting folks to unseal the Vigil-2 processor/battery box. If you've ever done that, you'll know there is a very long, skinny gasket that has to fit exactly right, especially around the connectors. Changing the connectors to the 2+ configuration and not allowing battery replacement is a way to avoid the water infiltration and corrosion problems they've had with a few units.

Mark

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Titanman2789


I emailed Vigil to ask about this. The website lists the Xtreme mode. This is the response I got

"The vigil 2+ will be available with the Xtreme mode. This means not a multimode unit but only with the Xtreme mode and the only differences are: activation speed with 43m/s instead of the 35m/s in Pro mode and does not activate anymore below the 300ft instead of 150ft.

We stay at your disposal.

Best regards,

Edwin Bollaerts

Project Manager

[email protected]"



When I spoke with Vigil America about ordering the Xtreme unit today, they said it's not for sale. It's only available to their sponsored athletes.

They may offer for it sale in the future...but not right now.

Mike
ChutingStar.com

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mark


I don't think so. I think it's more a case of not wanting folks to unseal the Vigil-2 processor/battery box. If you've ever done that, you'll know there is a very long, skinny gasket that has to fit exactly right, especially around the connectors. Changing the connectors to the 2+ configuration and not allowing battery replacement is a way to avoid the water infiltration and corrosion problems they've had with a few units.


Good point. In that case, it would make sense for them to control that risk.

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I have to get a new aad do u reckon it would be a good idea to get a new vigil2 while there still around instead of the vigil2+?
Only reason I wanted a vigil instead of a cypress was so I didnt have to send shit half way across the world just for batteries etc. .keeping in mind I just want something that fires if im unlucky enough to need it...dont really care about the added gimmicks etc
FTMC

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skez


Only reason I wanted a vigil instead of a cypress was so I didnt have to send shit half way across the world just for batteries etc. .keeping in mind I just want something that fires if im unlucky enough to need it...dont really care about the added gimmicks etc




Bzzz. Cypres 4 and 8 year services do a lot more than just change the battery. It's a full unit test and an update as necessary. See page 4 and beyond : http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf

It still baffles me why someone wants a precision life-saving device and is ok with never having it tested on regular basis. Would you get into an airplane that's 10 years out of annual ???

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likestojump

***
Only reason I wanted a vigil instead of a cypress was so I didnt have to send shit half way across the world just for batteries etc. .keeping in mind I just want something that fires if im unlucky enough to need it...dont really care about the added gimmicks etc




Bzzz. Cypres 4 and 8 year services do a lot more than just change the battery. It's a full unit test and an update as necessary. See page 4 and beyond : http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf

It still baffles me why someone wants a precision life-saving device and is ok with never having it tested on regular basis. Would you get into an airplane that's 10 years out of annual ???

The normal vigil2 has proven to be reliable with no required maintence unless a error shows and doesnt have to be sent far far away just for batteries...this is the reason i wanted one plus they work which is all I give a shit about....So should everyone throw there vigil2 in the bin and get a vigil2+?
FTMC

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Nah its a different/upraged unit...well thats wat I thought anyway...but I dunno.. also on chutingstar website it says the vigil2+ has field changable batteries etc then the paragraph bellow it says it has to be sent away for battery change lol
FTMC

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likestojump


It still baffles me why someone wants a precision life-saving device and is ok with never having it tested on regular basis.



Because it seems like a marketing and money-making tactic. Doesn't 4 years seem kinda arbitrary to you? I mean, why aren't you sending in your unit every year for testing? Are you crazy? A lot can go wrong in 4 years. It baffles me why you wouldn't want your precision life-saving device tested every year. I have my teeth cleaned and my reserve re-packed every 6 months, so why not test your AAD every 6 months? That would be a "regular basis" to me. 4 years is not a "regular basis". If it can last 4 years, why not 20 years? What's so special about 4 years that 20 years can't also do? Do you have knowledge of how many units are found to be out of spec during these inspections? Is it zero or close to zero? I dunno.

If I believed that this was truly necessary for these devices, I'd have a Cypres. I don't, so I have a Vigil. And we don't seem to be flooded with reports of malfunctioning Vigils that failed to fire. Although I'm really getting mixed messages about what Vigil does and doesn't require these days.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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This is not to anyone in particular. It's just next in line.

The differences are :


1) The hardware for the connectors for the cutter and display- Both are now screw in connections, which allows replacement of these two parts without opening the main box

2) The waterproofing and guarantee is improved, now IP 68.

3) The display is slightly shorter, for an easer fit into the plastic holders.

4) The arming altitude is now a fixed, 1,000 feet.

5) Vigil 2+ battery replacements for all customers in North, Central and South America will be performed by Vigil America at our office. (Customer’s in other locations battery change will be done by AAD – Belgium. The price will be a fixed price, but we do not have confirmation of that price yet.

likestojump


It still baffles me why someone wants a precision life-saving device and is ok with never having it tested on regular basis.



As I have posted too many times to count:

Any customer is welcome to send in their Vigil (regardless of model) for a complete and thorough check. You may do this as many times as you wish. You do not have to wait for the battery replacement. You can send it in every 4 years , 3 years, 2 years, 1 year, every 6 months - whatever makes you happy and confident in your equipment.

It's just not mandatory.

I've attached the "Offer of Maintenance" form for your convenience.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Skydivesg

*** Although I'm really getting mixed messages about what Vigil does and doesn't require these days.



I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mind explaining this a bit further?

For example, when I bought my Vigil, it was waterproof. Now it requires me to send it in for a check, but it's still waterproof..... Not that there's any chance I'll be landing in water.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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JeffCa

****** Although I'm really getting mixed messages about what Vigil does and doesn't require these days.



I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mind explaining this a bit further?

For example, when I bought my Vigil, it was waterproof. Now it requires me to send it in for a check, but it's still waterproof..... Not that there's any chance I'll be landing in water.

I totally understand.

The biggest reason for that is: several units had been opened up and the seal was either damaged or not reassembled correctly. This caused those units to allow moisture in and it caused problems, as you can imagine. The company knew they needed to address that.

That's one of the reasons for the new design of the 2+.

There is now no reason for anyone to open the unit except the company.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Thanks for clearing these things up. It's good to have company reps on here answering questions.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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JeffCa

***
It still baffles me why someone wants a precision life-saving device and is ok with never having it tested on regular basis.



Because it seems like a marketing and money-making tactic. Doesn't 4 years seem kinda arbitrary to you? I mean, why aren't you sending in your unit every year for testing? Are you crazy? A lot can go wrong in 4 years. It baffles me why you wouldn't want your precision life-saving device tested every year. I have my teeth cleaned and my reserve re-packed every 6 months, so why not test your AAD every 6 months? That would be a "regular basis" to me. 4 years is not a "regular basis". If it can last 4 years, why not 20 years? What's so special about 4 years that 20 years can't also do? Do you have knowledge of how many units are found to be out of spec during these inspections? Is it zero or close to zero? I dunno.

If I believed that this was truly necessary for these devices, I'd have a Cypres. I don't, so I have a Vigil. And we don't seem to be flooded with reports of malfunctioning Vigils that failed to fire. Although I'm really getting mixed messages about what Vigil does and doesn't require these days.

You are spewing garbage.

but - my personal experience is about 1% of the units I have sent in required further testing and ended up going to Germany for further work. All at no cost to me (but with a delay).

Also, to SandyG - no one in this thread said, or even inferred that Vigils don't offer maintenance. Them offering it as opposed to mandating it are two completely different things.

I stand by my comment on not wanting to board a plane 10 years out of annual. And to the OP - I suppose the concept of an annual or a 100hr inspection for planes is just as arbitrary as the 4 year check on the Cypres...

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likestojump


You are spewing garbage.



Wow, thanks for the thoughtful response. So by extending your thinking, some company could come out with a new AAD that requires maintenance every 2 years, and then make fun of you for letting it go 4 years on yours. "Are you crazy? 4 years?! Mine gets checked every 2 years! I wouldn't want to go on a plane that hadn't had a check for nearly 4 years, would you?! 2 years is clearly better." Tell me, please, what is so special about 4 years? Why can it only be 4 years and not more? What's wrong with 8? Why shouldn't we support annual inspections? Are you suggesting that nothing can go wrong within only a year? This is completely arbitrary.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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likestojump


I stand by my comment on not wanting to board a plane 10 years out of annual. And to the OP - I suppose the concept of an annual or a 100hr inspection for planes is just as arbitrary as the 4 year check on the Cypres...



Newsflash..... AADs are not planes.

Do you have any evidence of the manufacturer of the Vigil erring in their policy of not requiring maintenance at pre-determined intervals, instead of just when the unit tells you that it needs maintenance? If yes, present it.

Edited to add some nerd-dom: Yes, the number 100 hours for inspection is arbitrary. Humans like the number 100, because it's a nice round figure. It's a nice round figure because we use a base-10 system of numbers. We use a base-10 system of numerals probably because we have 10 fingers. There is nothing magical about the number 100, or the definition of an hour which it is in front of. If planes started dropping out of the sky at exactly 101 hours, that might be a reason to choose 100. Did that happen? Are Vigils "dropping out of the sky"? Err..... wait a minute......

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Quote

Newsflash..... AADs are not planes.

Do you have any evidence of the manufacturer of the Vigil erring in their policy of not requiring maintenance at pre-determined intervals, instead of just when the unit tells you that it needs maintenance? If yes, present it.



Yep more akin to a air bag in a car than a plane, when your air bag light comes on, you go get it looked at.

Same goes here.

I would like to know their rationale of not adding a speed option.

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I'm not all that concerned about having to send it in for a battery. Changing one is a PITA and I can see how some less mechanically inclined riggers could pinch the gasket or cause sealing problems.

In my part of the world, in the last 100 pack jobs 90 of them were Vigils. I realize this differs highly by region but I've never even seen a dead battery. Even vigil 1's are rocking their originals. Yet every 4 years those cypres units have to go back to have whatever secret defects covered up erm I mean tested.

I wouldn't worry about a $100 or even $200 fee. In the 10 years or so they last you still aren't even scratching the TCO of a Cypres.

All in all, I think it's nice that AAD is working to improve the product.

-Michael

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skez

on chutingstar website it says the vigil2+ has field changable batteries etc then the paragraph bellow it says it has to be sent away for battery change lol



Fixed, thanks for pointing that out. They didn't give us a full list of the features either. We're having to piece it together from what they did tell us (not much) plus the manual plus follow-up e-mails with Vigil America and AAD.

Mike
ChutingStar.com

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chutingstar

*** on chutingstar website it says the vigil2+ has field changable batteries etc then the paragraph bellow it says it has to be sent away for battery change lol



Fixed, thanks for pointing that out. They didn't give us a full list of the features either. We're having to piece it together from what they did tell us (not much) plus the manual plus follow-up e-mails with Vigil America and AAD.

yeh I thought thats wat happened... also I was hoping it was more like the normal (original) vigil2 but its similar to Cypress now with added waiting times on sending away etc

Mike
FTMC

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