Vigil 2+ introduced

[pchapman 261]

The Vigil 2+ has been announced but isn't on their web site yet.

Ronny2 posted the first info I saw, a JPG of a Vigil letter, in another Gear & Rigging thread, but it deserves a thread of its own. Copied here as the link wasn't always working right for me.

Looks like some decent changes, although further explanation will be needed of the details.

[Hellis 0]

Still no facebook app in them?


What does "active altitude" mean?
Is it activation altitude?
And what is "fix"?

[Southern_Man 0]

Hellis

Still no facebook app in them?


What does "active altitude" mean?
Is it activation altitude?
And what is "fix"?

I'm guessing a bit but it sounds to me that it won't go into "in-flight" mode until 1000 ft.

This is not activation altitude.

Of course the whole thing sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker and received no proofreading.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[ronny2 0]

Facebook is not the holy grail!
AAD announce that the manual will be on there website by next week, or you can require for further information.

So don't guess for things: ask them! Or wait till next week.

[lyosha 46]

My guess - they increased firing altitude from 850 to 1000 ft

[skydiverek 55]

lyosha

My guess - they increased firing altitude from 850 to 1000 ft

They are talking about 150 feet in the same sentence...

[Skydivesg 6]

lyosha

My guess - they increased firing altitude from 850 to 1000 ft

I've been in close communication with AAD / Vigil regarding this release and the re-writing of the manual.

At this point I'm not at liberty to discuss anything yet. They have asked we wait until the new manual is published.

They are fully aware of the need for clearer terms in the manual and I know they are making every effort to address that. They are also taking a lot of input from the US side and it appears I've had their ear as well.

In the mean time may I suggest that we not get too crazy with speculation of what that jpg means especially the part regarding active altitude. There are some very nice improvements that have been made including the hardware.

That jpg was sent to the sponsored athletes and dealers on Monday. The timing of that was, in part, because the factory stopped production to set up for the new changes. Because of this temporary stop of production, Vigils have gone on back order and the company wanted their dealers to know why.

They are currently writing the new manual and I for one do not want to rush them on this very important element.

The new Vigil II + should start shipping around May 1 and the manual will be ready before that.

As soon as I'm allowed, I will post exactly what the new active altitude settings mean. I believe it will be before they publish the new manual.

In the mean time, please be patient.

Sandy Grillet

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[michalm21 0]

Sir,
You are a gentleman and a scholar!

[pop0tart 0]

It's May :) Any updates on this thing? I'd like to know the new dimensions.

[skydiverek 55]

Same dimensions.

[earth2eric 12]

I'm just wondering, A: When will they actually be available? Everyone seems to be out of stock, and they are saying that they don't know when they are getting any, but when they do, it will be the new Vigil2 +. and B: If that's true, then won't those people kinda be like guinea pigs for this new design? It doesn't seem like the upgrade is a huge change but with changes always comes the possibility of errors, right? I'd really like to buy a Vigil, but I don't want to be the guy who gets the new design that pops the reserve while leading a track dive! Then again, the MARS did just become approved for the Curv......

[chutingstar 1]

Vigil 2+ Manual is available (link below)...although still no units yet and we just sold our last Vigil II unit today here at ChutingStar...now the waiting for the 2+ begins:

http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/Vigil-2%2BUsersManual.pdf

ChutingStar.com

[hackish 8]

I gave the manual a quick read through.

It seems that some interesting parameters have been changed. I think this is for the better as it seems they've made the unit a little more difficult to scare.

It now becomes armed only when you're reached 1000' AGL. I also notice that it's approved for operation in pressurized aircraft but with a few restrictions.

Another interesting warning is that you should not open the aircraft door below 1650' with student mode AADs on board.

The screen changes to indicate that it's in climb mode but since my AAD is behind me I've never watched to see if the existing ones do this.

It would be interesting to see a definitive list from AAD as I only picked off a few things that caught my eye.

-Michael

[matthewncerda 0]

Being such a large dealer, I'm thinking you may have slightly more insight. Is Vigil going to be sending you large quantities of the new product or are you going to have the same lead time of +/-6 weeks, like their website says? I have been unable to figure out what the "Xtreme" version (or mode?) is supposed to do different and was hoping maybe you have knowledge on that. If anyone else has informed knowledge on this subject matter, feel free to respond.

[pchapman 261]

First impressions:

External cable connector attachment - can change cutters without opening the Vigil.

Has a clip that prevents external connectors from pulling out accidentally. (Cypres doesn't, although it generally isn't a problem.)

It is unclear to me if the cutter cables have changed?? Presumably they are, as the ends of the cables are visibly different but nothing is really said about it.

We've moved to Arabic numbers: It is the "2+" and not the "II+".

Doesn't arm until 1000 ft above the ground. Quite different than the Vigil II's behaviour, and more like a Cypres (with its 1500 ft).(Exception: When there's a negative altitude offset, it is 1000 ft above the offset level.)

The Vigil II had the warning about having the plane climb out of the + or - 150 ft range from the runway and not linger a long time there, otherwise the Vigil might not sense enough change to register that it had gone airborne. This range has now tightened down to + or - 90 ft.

Screen pixels invert to show when it switches to Airborne mode. Helps with the "what the heck is the AAD thinking?" question that affects different AADs. Useful if dealing with movement in a car, different altitude landing and takeoff areas, etc.

After one incident some years ago where the Vigil fired in the plane, the manual got the warning about not opening the door "while in the activation zone". That always seemed a copout, admitting their activation logic was shaky. Now the restriction is lessened and is more specific: Don't open the door if under 1640 ft and there are Student mode Vigil's aboard.

The jump info (freefall time & speed) displays for 2 min after landing, instead of only being accessible within menus.

A negative: Battery change can't be done by a rigger any more. They say not to open the case, don't give instructions, and say it voids the warranty. Have to send the unit in to Vigil service centre. That's a big change from the "don't need to send it in" philosophy. Same battery pack number and expected lifetime and mandatory 10 yr replacement.

They still say "No scheduled maintenance required", but that might be considered debatable since it is now "send it in at 10 years for the battery" (unless the battery already was changed).

Hmm, presumably they won't put in a new battery at the 20 year point. Wonder what happens if someone sends it in for a battery at 19.75 years? Will batteries be sold anymore once the last Vigil II times out at 20 years?

(If rules lawyering, they say 10 years OF USE for the battery, so that time could be considered to start when you receive the unit and turn it on, not a few months before when it left the factory. Whether for the Vigil II or 2+, that introduces uncertainty into mandatory replacement intervals.)

The Vigil II+ doesn't need to be sent back to a service center if it gets wet, to the extent it does in a typical swoop pond. Originally the Vigil 2 was good with water, with its filter not needing replacement like the Cypres 2. But a service bulletin backpedalled a whole lot on water resistance (PSB 9), due to some units getting damp inside, requiring the Vigil II to be sent in if the filter got wet. Now on the 2+ you only need to do so if immersed below 1.8m or more than 24 hrs. They did upgrade the certification level from IP67 (0.5m down/30min) to IP68 (1.8m down/24 hrs).

The main box remains the same size and weight, despite the cable connector system being modified.

A change in philosophy: Instead of saying that it fires (in Pro mode) at 840 ft but up to 1100 ft depending on body position, they quote that it fires when measuring 1100 ft, and then note it may range 840 to 1100 ft actual altitude.

They strongly recommend having a fully open canopy 1000 ft above the activation altitude. I'm not sure if they are thus suggesting being fully open by 1840 ft or 2100 ft. That's a little disquieting although perhaps just cover-your-ass language. I always thought you wanted a fully open canopy by that 1100 ft level, so there would be no issue of burble and changing body position.

There are still warnings about if one has a LZ at a different altitude than the previous takeoff zone, and then launch from that new level. They always wanted a switch off and on to be sure the new ground reference level is set. (They used to say 100ft, now 90 ft, no big deal.) But I'd think that if one were at the LZ for any length of time, it would self adjust? After all, it is supposed to account for air pressure changes during the day, AND now you do know for sure if it is in ground mode or sees too much pressure change too fast and goes into airborne mode. Is there something I'm missing or are they just being conservative in suggesting rebooting the Vigil?

I haven't gone in detail over the altitude adjustment stuff, which is both for adjusting the desired firing altitude, and LZ level differences. As before, a single adjustment routine is used to cover both cases. There was a big thread earlier this year about adjustments, which included some confusion that people had over how the Vigil handles that. I haven't compared the details, but the new section is expanded and looks like it is much more clear on what happens to the +150 ft no-fire zone, when an altitude correction is applied. Read it carefully, as one gets different effects depending on whether one is landing higher, landing lower, or just trying to increase the activation altitude in general.

I wouldn't say it is some brilliant rewrite of the manual, and it is now chock full of varying font sizes and still has a million warnings. But they have tried to clarify things.

It would be nice to have a summary sheet of changes instead of having this kind of search game. Maybe later they will have one.

Nice to see Vigil coming up with new stuff.

[chutingstar 1]

Nice catch...I didn't see that in my first scan for differences. But it's clear in the manual...that definitely takes away one of the selling points (for those that didn't want to have to worry about scheduling downtime due to an AAD serivce).

I do wonder if AAD or Vigil America will end up approving Master Riggers or "Vigil Lofts" for the replacement...or if they do want to now get into the AAD battery/service business...be it 5-10 years from now.

pchapman

A negative: Battery change can't be done by a rigger any more. They say not to open the case, don't give instructions, and say it voids the warranty. Have to send the unit in to Vigil service centre. That's a big change from the "don't need to send it in" philosophy. Same battery pack number and expected lifetime and mandatory 10 yr replacement.

They still say "No scheduled maintenance required", but that might be considered debatable since it is now "send it in at 10 years for the battery" (unless the battery already was changed).

ChutingStar.com

[SmokinJoeKS 0]

pchapman

A negative: Battery change can't be done by a rigger any more. They say not to open the case, don't give instructions, and say it voids the warranty. Have to send the unit in to Vigil service centre. That's a big change from the "don't need to send it in" philosophy. Same battery pack number and expected lifetime and mandatory 10 yr replacement.

They still say "No scheduled maintenance required", but that might be considered debatable since it is now "send it in at 10 years for the battery" (unless the battery already was changed).

Hmm, presumably they won't put in a new battery at the 20 year point. Wonder what happens if someone sends it in for a battery at 19.75 years? Will batteries be sold anymore once the last Vigil II times out at 20 years?

Voiding the warranty would seem to be a meaningless consequence for opening the case at 10 years to change the battery pack, because the warranty is only for 2 years. Unless Vigil has some other consequence in mind...?

What will Vigil charge for battery replacement? Will the entire AAD have to be removed from your rig and sent in? Or just the main box?

Raises some questions. Hopefully someone in the know will provide some answers.

[likestojump 3]

SmokinJoeKS

What will Vigil charge for battery replacement? Will the entire AAD have to be removed from your rig and sent in? Or just the main box?

Raises some questions. Hopefully someone in the know will provide some answers.

I'd love for you to elaborate on what you mean.

[SmokinJoeKS 0]

likestojump

I'd love for you to elaborate on what you mean.

Simple. If Vigil is going to charge the same price for having them change the battery as we can have it done now in the field, plus a few dollars for shipping, then there is no significant increase in the cost of ownership over the life of the AAD. On the other hand, if this battery change turns into a de facto inspection and recertification like that required by Cypres, and is priced accordingly, then the long-term cost of ownership (up to now a big selling point for Vigil) will increase more significantly.

Also unknown is the cost at the loft. If this turns into an inspection requiring the entire AAD to be removed and sent in, the rigger will have to charge more than if he can simply disconnect the main box (which contains the battery pack) and send only that in to Vigil.

[vision 0]

So still no speed mode for those with faster canopies?

I know someone that died while doing an AFF jump using a velo 79 I believe it was. The vigil fired during landing all within parameter.

It is a shame if they do not have a speed mode.

or do they?

[likestojump 3]

SmokinJoeKS

Also unknown is the cost at the loft. If this turns into an inspection requiring the entire AAD to be removed and sent in, the rigger will have to charge more than if he can simply disconnect the main box (which contains the battery pack) and send only that in to Vigil.

This is where you loose me.

The AAD is a single unit. I am not aware of anyone sending in "just the main box". It sounds completely backasswards.

[parachutist 1]

Update from today on vigil.aero:
http://www.vigil.aero/news

May 21, 2014
Vigil 2+ delayed

We regret to inform you that the Vigil 2+ will not be available end of this month, as previously announced.

During one of our factory quality control tests, we stated that one of the subparts did not meet our specifications and strict quality standards.

Please understand that in the interest of safety we have decided to immediately stop the production and reject all manufactured units so far. New subparts have been urgently ordered, unfortunately resulting in an additional delay of approximately 4 weeks.

Once new Vigils 2+ have been produced, we will of course fulfill first the back orders creating a delivery time of 6 to 8 weeks for the new orders.
This longer 6 to 8 weeks delivery time will progressively be reduced.

As a company that prides itself on loyal customer service we offer sincere apologies and hope that this delay will not cause too much inconvenience.

We stay at your entire disposal for any further information you may require.

[pchapman 261]

likestojump

The AAD is a single unit. I am not aware of anyone sending in "just the main box". It sounds completely backasswards.

It does sound odd but the guy has a point: If one is sending in a Vigil 2+ just for batteries, and not an entire system check, and it has a separable cables, why not just send the box in? No need to feed the cables through slots all over the rig again.

(Not sure about going jumping in the meantime with loose cables left in the pack tray, but I suppose the ends could be secured in the AAD pouch.)

[likestojump 3]

pchapman

***
The AAD is a single unit. I am not aware of anyone sending in "just the main box". It sounds completely backasswards.

It does sound odd but the guy has a point: If one is sending in a Vigil 2+ just for batteries, and not an entire system check, and it has a separable cables, why not just send the box in? No need to feed the cables through slots all over the rig again.

(Not sure about going jumping in the meantime with loose cables left in the pack tray, but I suppose the ends could be secured in the AAD pouch.)

Disconnecting the cables for the cutter and control unit and leaving them in the rig :
a) may be questionable as per the FAA
b) seems like is more labor intensive then removing the complete AAD unit
c) causes more wear to the AAD unit and violates the KISS principle
d) forgos the ability for the factory to test and if needed update the software or hardware related to cutter/control unit.

Again, I fail to see any reason to do that. I also think the person who I originally replied to is misinformed :(

[katzas 0]

Seems to me that the Vigil folks need a lesson in marketing. At the very least they should publish a list of the changes, upgrades or "fixes" that make the Vigil 2+ different (presumably better) than the plain ol' Vigil 2 rather than just changing the manual and making us hunt for them. For example--Aerodyne went to great lengths to document and portray the changes to their Icon Pro (now the Icon Nexgen). Did that cost Aerodyne something? Yes it did. But--when a manufacturer of anything makes it better it's a "hook" to hang their corporate hat on--i.e. "we're listening to our customers and constantly working to improve our widget". C'mon Vigil--tell us all about it.