Reserve Closing Loop Material

[dpreguy 14]

Koppel You are correct. I actually had forgot about this cypres washer thing that came up a few years ago.
Thanks for reminding me. And, it speaks of a "tear out" not a bending. That's a lotta force to cause that!

[hajnalka 0]

dpreguy

Koppel You are correct. I actually had forgot about this cypres washer thing that came up a few years ago.
Thanks for reminding me. And, it speaks of a "tear out" not a bending. That's a lotta force to cause that!

No, not that much force, surprisingly. I've had a few of these defective washers: most recently ~ 3 years ago on a rig that was out of service for some time. That one failed when I was pinning the PC on a Javelin (no leverage tool.) The few that I had, tore completely between two of the holes.

At that time, I talked to SSK and they seemed to think most of them were already out of the field. Hopefully this is a thing of the past, but it never hurts to keep in mind. I have only heard of them failing during closing, and not during use of the rig.

I stopped reusing old Cypres washers then; if I'm not confident the washer was pre-SB, I replace it.

[gowlerk 1,901]

The M2 I have here came with what appears to be a genuine
Smiley. It has "CYPRES" engraved on it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Walt,

Quote

"Fender Washers". Small hole is just right! Buy a box from Ace hardware.

+1

Here is a photo of 1,000 lb Spectra with a stainless steel fender washer.

It has an OD of 7/8" and an ID of 3/16".

Works great IMO,

JerryBaumchen

[theonlyski 3]

I'm honestly a little surprised that so many people use spectra for reserves, I've never come across a modern sport rig with anything other than the cypres closing loop.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[dpreguy 14]

Yup.. that's the ticket for main closing loops. Thanks for the picture! That's the one!! 7/8 dia outside and 3/16 hole. And, since it s a punched product, back the knot up on the smooth-rounded side. Not the "cut" side.

Thanks for the picture. (I don't know how to take and publish pictures, so I would not have been able to do that.)

Reserves: I only use Cypres washers and Dyneema-Cypres closing loop material.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Robert,

Quote

a modern sport rig

Who said it was for 'a modern sport rig'?

That particular loop is for a prototype PEP rig.

However, unless a CYPRES is being used, you could use a Spectra loop for 'a modern sport rig.'

JerryBaumchen

[koppel 3]

Thanks

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[erdnarob 1]

Just have a close look at the diagram on my first post in this thread. You passes the loop only in one hole and secure the loop using the two notches and the knot passing under the closing loop between the 2 notches. The knot is locked as you can see in the following 2 pictures.

Note : the closing loop washer and loop are generally provided by the rig manufacturer and since there are thousands of Cypres washers formerly given by Airtec to manufacturers, they still use them. But it would be nice to get some Vigil washers and thread with the Vigil 2 aluminum box.

On the pictures, one can see the latest Vigil washer. This new washer is obtained from metal powder highly heated and pressed in a die just like the teeth of a circular saw, giving it a lot of strength with a smooth finish. Maybe a news for some of you.

Another news maybe : There is now the new Vigil 2+ with some features slightly different than the Vigil 2

I heard that Vigil has now more than 50% of the AAD world market. Time to discover the Deneema thread and Vigil washers.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[riggerrob 558]

theonlyski

I'm honestly a little surprised that so many people use spectra for reserves, I've never come across a modern sport rig with anything other than the cypres closing loop.

................................................................................

That is because most modern sport rigs have electronic AADs.
You would be ... er ... silly ... to use anything other than Cypres cord (for a reserve closing loop).

[hackish 8]

Funny that this thread comes up. This was just found inside a rig. For old school rigs I think things like this could be fine but with newer rigs and their small grommets you don't want to run the risk of turning the user into a test pilot. I err on the side of caution and always install a fresh cypres loop.

I like the cypres washer and cord because it is approved for everything. Otherwise I would need cypres washers and cord in addition to the vigil specific stuff.

-Michael

[mark 102]

hackish

This was just found inside a rig. . . .
-Michael

How long was that closing loop?

Mark

[koppel 3]

***
I like the cypres washer and cord because it is approved for everything. Otherwise I would need cypres washers and cord in addition to the vigil specific stuff.

-Michael


well as they said in 2011....

"For liability reasons: the CYPRES loop and disc system is not to be used in combination with other AAD's"


http://www.cypres-usa.com/Rigging-notice_20110421_eng.pdf

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[hackish 8]

mark

***This was just found inside a rig. . . .
-Michael

How long was that closing loop?

Mark

Hmmm. Good question. The rig arrived opened. The owner had just purchased it and opened it so I could supervise some of his repacks. We installed the correct loop and packed it together before I packed it so it could be jumped. I took my length out of the javelin manual so I never actually measured that one. If there had been a seal on it and I had found it I would have made a phone call.

-Michael

[hackish 8]

koppel

well as they said in 2011....

"For liability reasons: the CYPRES loop and disc system is not to be used in combination with other AAD's"


http://www.cypres-usa.com/Rigging-notice_20110421_eng.pdf

Here is the problem:
http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/Vigil-II-users-manual-II.0.6.pdf

Quote

All reserve closing loops currently on the market that are similar to Vigil® Dyneema or the
Spectra CSR style #9512-300 or the Cypres™ Loop (Spectra Cord) are acceptable for use by the installation of
the Vigil®.

The law said to install and use according to the instructions of the AAD manufacturer and rig manufacturer, not their competitors.

-Michael

[erdnarob 1]

It is a non sense to ask a specific washer to be used absolutely with an AAD of the same brand. If another washer has been designed and tested for AAD closing loops, why not using it. It's like asking a Ford car owner to absolutely use Ford parts or to use the same tire brand than the original. This major AAD manufacturer has made mandatory the use of its pocket for its AAD only. The new Vigil washer is superior in strength and even the former Vigil washer has never be seen bent and it is easier to install. And in USA and Canada there are laws about that kind of manufacturer abuse.

The question about the AAD pocket was asked at the PIA symposium rigger seminar few years ago at Reno Nevada. The riggers in the audience didn't believe the manufacturer's representative when she said that using the manufacturer pocket for an AAD of another manufacturer was not safe. If my memory is good, at this seminar, Bill Booth said that when he designs a rig, he has it tested with about half a dozen of different manufacturer reserves but cannot try them all. Making mandatory a thread, a washer, a pocket of the same brand than the AAD is abusive when there are specially designed counterparts.
Get a Vigil washer and Deneema thread and judge by yourself.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hackish 8]

erdnarob

It is a non sense to ask a specific washer to be used absolutely with an AAD of the same brand. If another washer has been designed and tested for AAD closing loops, why not using it.

-SNIP-

Get a Vigil washer and Deneema thread and judge by yourself.

While I agree with you on a technical standpoint it is not uncommon in aviation to see lists of the only components approved for a specific use. Maybe a Pratt would run better on that skyvan but unless it's approved your AWC is no good.

While the washer and deneema thread may be better, it is not approved for use and the story ends there.

Maybe the cypres cutter is not able to cut deneema thread properly. I haven't tried it and it's not right to ask my rigging clients to be the test pilots.

Suppose for whatever reason the cutter fails to cut the loop and a jumper goes in. When asked if you followed the manufacturer's rules in assembling and installing the AAD what answer could you give?

The part I find offensive is that one manufacturer tries to say their parts cannot be used on anothers product. I don't think they have any say.

-Michael

[pchapman 261]

(Just hitting reply to whatever post is last)

FWIW, Dyneema and Spectra are basically the same chemical composition spun into a high performance fiber of similar (but not necessarily identical) physical characteristics, just from different companies, and both Cypres and Vigil loop material are both listed at 450 lbs strength.

We do indeed have the problem that for AAD's, the rules we work with are silly, as we have to do anything the manufacturer says, for whatever reason. We don't even seem to have that allowance for interchanging compatible components that riggers can use for other parts of the gear under FAA rules.

If someone wants to have an "out" to the Cypres requirements, the section in the Cypres 2 manual that says "Only use original CYPRES loops / loop material, pull ups, and discs when a CYPRES is installed in the container" is prefaced by a statement in bold saying "The following tips are only brief suggestions."

A tip or a suggestion is non-mandatory. Make your own choice.

[theonlyski 3]

hackish

The part I find offensive is that one manufacturer tries to say their parts cannot be used on anothers product. I don't think they have any say.

This is an interesting one. If we're required to follow the manufacturers guidance for all components installed, that very well could require people to not use Cypres loops/disks on say Vigil equipped rigs.

The way it's currently worded as a recommendation/tip would be one thing, but if Airtec came out and put in the manual that their loops and disks may only be used by rigs equipped with Cypres AADs, I could see how they could enforce it if they wanted.

Chances are small, but if someone goes in with no reserve out and the FAA found that they're using equipment that's not allowed, it could be an annoyance at the least for the rigger.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Andre',

Quote

The question about the AAD pocket was asked at the PIA symposium rigger seminar few years ago at Reno Nevada.

Looks like we were both in the audience that day. I was sitting only a couple of feet from Bill Booth when he also said that if CYPRES continued with their req'ment then he & other mfrs would build their own AAD pockets and allow any AAD to be installed into them.

That sort of stopped the discussion as I recall.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Michael,

Quote

While I agree with you on a technical standpoint it is not uncommon in aviation to see lists of the only components approved for a specific use.

Unless I missed the memo, not one part of any AAD is certificated by the FAA.

'Approved' by the AAD mfr carries no weight with me.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Robert,

Quote

If we're required to follow the manufacturers guidance for all components installed, that very well could require people to not use Cypres loops/disks on say Vigil equipped rigs.

We are req'd to maintain the AAD in accordance with the AAD mfrs req'ments.

If a container mfr lists the locking loop & disc material in technical terms that all of the loop materials & discs comply with, then the discussion is over.

Or a mfr could take the position that no AAD is certificated and that the installation & use is the choice of the owner & at the risk of the owner. I think doing both is the way to go.

A number of years ago I was having lunch with Mike Truffer at the restaurant in DeLand and he was livid that an AAD mfr could tell a container mfr what to do. I could not agree with him more.

JerryBaumchen

[gowlerk 1,901]

Now I'm starting to feel like maybe I've been reckless in the past. In my supply bin I have a container with reserve closing loops in it. Most of them are pre-made ones from Vigils, CYPRES, or M2s that I've installed. When I need a new loop for a repack I just grab one. I don't even know what brand any of them are. Please don't tell on me.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks Jerry to bring some more info. Yes we should have been at this rigger forum together, I think it was in 2011 at Reno. But one fact remains and it is that there is NO TSO of any AADs. On the other hand it is obvious for me that when a manufacturer makes it mandatory to use his AAD pocket and washer to be used with his AAD, the reason seems to get more money and scared the people. A car manufacturer cannot ask a car owner to do the maintenance only at authorized dealer, and the owner can use equivalent spare parts without making the car illegal. And this is the law telling that.
Could you just imagine Strong Enterprises who is making both harness/container and parachutes as well making mandatory the use of his parachutes in his harness/container ????????????? And in this thread, we are speaking about closing loop thread and washer, ie the Vigil washer made specifically for AADs, beautifully made, stronger and easier to install. I have packed several reserves this Spring and all of them were Vigil 2 equiped. You bet that I have put a Deneema closing loop and a Vigil new washer. Just ask them and you will get them.

Three of the biggest DZs in Quebec having two turbine airplanes each, are using Vigil 2 AADs only.
I also can see that the main Vigil competitor has adopted the multimode option like Vigil, after promoting for 20 years + one mode factory set AADs.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hackish 8]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Michael,

Quote

While I agree with you on a technical standpoint it is not uncommon in aviation to see lists of the only components approved for a specific use.

Unless I missed the memo, not one part of any AAD is certificated by the FAA.

'Approved' by the AAD mfr carries no weight with me.

If you're willing to throw away the recommendations of the AAD manufacturer then how about using some aircraft cable for a closing loop with your cypres. After all don't they do a demo showing that the cutter will cut it?

The problem I think with deciding not to follow the recommendations of a manufacturer is that it is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? If cypres cord is the only thing approved for a cypres, I'm pretty sure the vigil product is OK. How about some of that 300lb HMA? I've seen it. How about some gutted 550? I've seen that too. Never seen AC cable though :)

-Michael