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katzas

WILL AADS BECOME MANDATORY?

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Di0

******I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.



Neither can I. Do you know someone who does? What kind of life preservation device are you referring to?

I think he was referring to people that don't use a skyhook because "that damn thing costs a whole 300 dollars!!!".
Then they spend just as much in customized stripe colors and embroideries.

Yes, if I were buying a new Vector, Javelin or Icon I would go with a Skyhook. And if a customer asked, I would advise one. Or if they were buying a Wings I would advise their MARD as well. But if I bought a new container, it would probably be a Talon, and the lack of a MARD option would not cause me a second of hesitation. And when people ask, I tell them Vigils are what I advise, unless they want to try an M2.

But I would never suggest that the price of any of these things has any relationship to the value of anyone's life. That is absurd hyperbole. If I wanted to save money I would stay on the ground. Devices are only backups.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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>I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

That's sort of a silly argument.

Do you have an AED in your office? Or have you decided your own life is not worth $1000?

Do you wear a helmet when you drive? Or have you decided your own life is not worth $300?

Etc etc. No one avoids buying an AAD because they don't think their life is worth $300. They don't do it because they don't think that it adds that much value to their skydiving.

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katzas

ianyapxw wrote:
Choose to use or don't choose to use--it's all up to you--as it should be but please do a bit more thinking about making statements that justify your decisions.



I'm not justifying anything. I don't own gear and won't for a while, I'm just explaining how I think others think.

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billvon

>I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

That's sort of a silly argument.

Do you have an AED in your office? Or have you decided your own life is not worth $1000?

Do you wear a helmet when you drive? Or have you decided your own life is not worth $300?

Etc etc. No one avoids buying an AAD because they don't think their life is worth $300. They don't do it because they don't think that it adds that much value to their skydiving.



+1 :D:D

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Perhaps a little thread drift might help with meaningful conversation.

Such as...if you owned/operated a DZ, would you require AADs? I would throw in to the question an assumption that CRW rigs would be exempt. They are usually pretty obvious to spot visually and aren't very versatile that they would be used for other purposes.

I think that as a DZO, it would be very tempting to require AADs. I think it likely that a DZO would wish that certain motivating factors that would push them to that decision didn't exist, but in reality they are there.

What is the actual experience of DZs that do now require them - has it been really bad for the popularity of it with experienced jumpers? Are any of these DZs that require them in a location where there is nearby competition without the requirement?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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sundevil777

Perhaps a little thread drift might help with meaningful conversation.

Such as...if you owned/operated a DZ, would you require AADs? I would throw in to the question an assumption that CRW rigs would be exempt. They are usually pretty obvious to spot visually and aren't very versatile that they would be used for other purposes.

I think that as a DZO, it would be very tempting to require AADs. I think it likely that a DZO would wish that certain motivating factors that would push them to that decision didn't exist, but in reality they are there.

What is the actual experience of DZs that do now require them - has it been really bad for the popularity of it with experienced jumpers? Are any of these DZs that require them in a location where there is nearby competition without the requirement?



I wouldn't require anything more than the USPA does other than banning anyone under the age of 18 from the property, with no exceptions unless required by law.
cavete terrae.

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my dz i went through aff at actually wouldn't let me jump without an aad once i had my license but they didn't have a requirement to have an aad which prompted them to come up with a company policy. one of the other instructors convinced them to set a 50 jump rule stating that its at least double what the uspa requires and they agreed to it.

so maybe instead of suggesting either an all or nothing type of deal, maybe just try to have the standards raised to either a; b or c-license and that may get the ball rolling and set a better standard.

lets face it, getting the uspa to add or change rules is almost fruitless. every time they do they catch a big bag of shit from everybody! if anyone is that concerned about an issue how about contacting/e-mailing all the dz's (at least the ones in your own country) and trying to incorporate a company policy. maybe grandfather the ones that would directly effect but will set a higher standard for newbies that wouldn't even know the difference.

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grue

******banning anyone under the age of 18 from the property



Why is that?

Because children:

1. Annoy me.
2. Are a liability nightmare.Whereas adults are always perfectly reasonable and never cause any problems.:D

I agree to an extent though. The DZ is not a place for very young children.

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Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?)

Is the issue just that the older jumpers see an AAD as an add-on, but many newer jumpers see it as a vital part of a rig? I don't consider a rig to be "complete" if it doesn't have an AAD. When I see ads for a "complete rig", I expect it to have an AAD, but it often doesn't. What should be the definition of a "complete rig"?

Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory? I haven't been around enough to know, but I do know that some old-timers insist that their eyes are their primary alti.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Most US DZs don't require AADs. As an old-timer, I consider an AAD to be an add-on, but one that I do have. So is an RSL (which I also have).

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Pretty much all your statements are true--TODAY. Now--as far as a local government making a local regulation where the FAA claims jurisdiction--well, it happens all the time. Case in point is where local governments sought to usurp federal regulation and jurisdiction with regard to amateur radio. The FCC has jurisdiction but that didn't stop communities from passing regulations that adversely impacted that hobby. Ultimately, federal law prevails--but it takes a challenge and, in many cases, years of costly litigation to do so. Voters didn't have much interest in that either. Government encroachment on personal choice is rampant and seems to be getting worse--and it doesn't take congress passing a law either--just a stroke of a pen from the likes of the EPA can do it. As to the logic of the FAA requiring AAD use in light of most fatalities being attributable to non-AAD life saving opportunities--well now you're being logical. Logic and government rarely coincide these days. Optics seem to rule.
I agree--I hope they don't--but--they could if some whuffo do-gooders make enough noise. Hell, most of them wish we would just go away anyway.

Personal choice seems to be under attack in practically every venue. We choose to skydive--and that, in today's political climate seems to be a reason to suspect one's sanity and motives. More than one non-skydiver has looked upon our choice as a thumb in the eye to conformity. My license plate on my car was LMTFA. Leave Me The Fuck Alone.

Insurance companies could require a DZ operator to mandate AAD use or either pay a lot more for his liability insurance (any excuse will do if it means more $$$ in their pockets) or not issue a policy at all. Precedent is as close as your car. If you are injured in an accident and it can be proven that you weren't wearing your seat harness--good luck.

I too hope none of the above happens. But you did ask by whom--and I offered a plethora of possible sources. I hope our thread doesn't give anybody ideas to actually do it.

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JeffCa

Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?)



I'm against them being mandatory, personally. I'm also against seat belts being mandatory, or motorcycle helmets, but I always use 'em.

Quote


Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory? I haven't been around enough to know, but I do know that some old-timers insist that their eyes are their primary alti.



I've jumped without a visual alti a few times. Twice I can remember a newer jumper forgetting his and giving him mine instead, once I was using my helmet to carry my goggles and alti, and the alti fell out on the way to the plane.
cavete terrae.

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JeffCa

Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?)

Is the issue just that the older jumpers see an AAD as an add-on, but many newer jumpers see it as a vital part of a rig? I don't consider a rig to be "complete" if it doesn't have an AAD. When I see ads for a "complete rig", I expect it to have an AAD, but it often doesn't. What should be the definition of a "complete rig"?

Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory? I haven't been around enough to know, but I do know that some old-timers insist that their eyes are their primary alti.



I have never jumped at a DZ that wouldn't let me jump without an AAD and I jumped for several years without any form of alti after having them repeatedly stolen with little use. People arguing over how high to throw there riser dive looking to me for an opinion and I was all sight picture. So to answer you question I have never been any place where either are mandatory. But the latter is totally unheard of and unchecked in most of the US.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Quagmirian

*********banning anyone under the age of 18 from the property



Why is that?

Because children:

1. Annoy me.
2. Are a liability nightmare.Whereas adults are always perfectly reasonable and never cause any problems.:D

I agree to an extent though. The DZ is not a place for very young children.

I don't think a DZ is a place for anyone who can't sign a waiver.
cavete terrae.

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craddock

***Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?)

...

Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory? I haven't been around enough to know, but I do know that some old-timers insist that their eyes are their primary alti.



I have never jumped at a DZ that wouldn't let me jump without an AAD and I jumped for several years without any form of alti after having them repeatedly stolen with little use.... So to answer you question I have never been any place where either are mandatory.

Thanks for the input, but I think people (you and Wendy) are answering my first question assuming that I meant AAD. I didn't. I meant what I wrote, reserve. I'm trying to draw out the fundamental differences between a mandatory (and widely accepted as so) piece of equipment that can save your life, and the question of making another piece of equipment that can save your life mandatory.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Sundevil has hit on probably the biggest drive/change motivator:

I think that the most significant thing is that more places will likely end up making AAD mandatory; as for the business owner, they get the benefit as well (lower risk) without incurring the cost.

AADs are not perfect, but they do save some people’s life

In Australia they are mandatory at most dropzones, this does not seem to preclude people from jumping here. It has become part of the norm here, so people don’t tend to question it. What it does do is create a bit of a culture change which has some good and bad elements. Broadly – I think it is a good idea as the benefits seem to outweigh the negatives.

For me - most of my jumps are not with a Cypress. I also go on some FF jumps without a cypress with selected friends. (I have 3 cypresses – well 2 now that I just sold one to a friend). I think the most important thing is how we approach and consider risk (as stated by Wendy). All of us need to look at what jumps we are doing, our level or risk, currency, deployment height, experience, equipment suitability and where we are on the risk continuum (and how comfortable we are there). I do this for every jump; that’s part of the reason why I don’t take my swoopiest mains on some loads for example (e.g. not limited to AAD choice).

E.g. if I was into angle or dynamic flying I would really want to have one. I would then also probably have a bigger main to deal with any traffic.

PS. When my units get the new service I would bump up the fire height by 200-300 feet to give it more margin (my opening heights are already higher)
"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

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grue

***Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?)



I'm against them being mandatory, personally. I'm also against seat belts being mandatory, or motorcycle helmets, but I always use 'em.



You're against a DZ making reserves mandatory? Everybody with a serious malfunction would almost certainly die.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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JeffCa


You're against a DZ making reserves mandatory? Everybody with a serious malfunction would almost certainly die.



Everyone with a serious malfunction who made the choice to jump without a reserve, yes. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to jump with a reserve if they want, and I'd hope everyone would, but if someone wants to go make a jump with his new BASE rig, I fail to see the problem. Just don't hit my car if you go in, please.
cavete terrae.

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Quote

Thanks for the input, but I think people (you and Wendy) are answering my first question assuming that I meant AAD. I didn't. I meant what I wrote, reserve.

Well, while I did answer about AAD :$, your specific question was about altis rather than reserves (Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory?). And while they also aren't required, many jumpers will look at you a little funny if you don't have one.

Reserves are required in the US by law.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

Reserves are required in the US by law.



Right. And I'm guessing that most on here (Grue excepted) are fine with that. But the argument seems fundamentally the same as the AAD argument, just one is accepted and one is not. Reserves are expensive. They can possibly kill you. Lots of people never use them. But most of us would never even entertain the idea of jumping without one. I'm not sure if anybody wants to call the USA a "nanny state" because they mandate reserves.

I think as we get more and more separation between us and the time when AADs were new, they'll come to be as accepted and vital as reserves are. I'm already finding Aerodyne's advertising about building all of the components for a rig to be a little jarring, because they don't make AADs, and I'm probably not alone there.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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You are usually so articulate and straight forward with good ideas, and now you come up with this. I guess it's just another symptom of the emotion that surrounds AADs.

The reason reserves are both necessary and mostly, but not always mandated is the historically high and somewhat predictable rate of main parachute malfunctions. Requiring them is not really needed because few if any would choose to be without one. This is because they have succeeded in the marketplace of ideas.

AADs have also largely succeeded, every year fewer and fewer people choose to go without one. If lowering the death rate to it's absolute smallest number is the only objective, then sure, AADs, RSLs, MARDs, banning swooping, banning ever larger formations and ever smaller canopies is the answer. Of course the ultimate answer is to ban unnecessary risk completely.

But we allow grown ups to make grown up decisions about the level of risk to accept. All states are nanny states to some degree. But I intend to hold onto as many freedoms as I can. There are many things in skydiving that others do that I will not risk. Please don't ask that I be demanded to follow you personal standard unless you are willing to give up the risks that you choose to accept but I don't.

The world is not having a large problem that mandatory AADs will solve. That's because most people have already chosen to use one. Our world is having casualties from other activities that could be banned and I don't want those outlawed either.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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