WILL AADS BECOME MANDATORY?

[faulknerwn 36]

Are you in favor of banning radical canopies? That would save more lives than mandating AADs. I don't have AADs mostly because I have multiple rigs and they are @^%#^&@ expensive! If someone wanted to donate me some I would use them.

I jump Triathlons for mains loaded at 1.2-1.3 and never swoop. I think I have a better change of not dying even without an AAD than someone who has an AAD but jumps a Velocity 90 and swoops it.

I do mostly tandem video for free fall jumps and CRW on my fun jumps so my odds of having a free fall collision are low.

Its a risk management game.

[ianyapxw 0]

Well this thread is pretty much the same "AAD/RSL can save you" and "there's no reason not to use one", blah blah blah.

I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

Why don't never BASE jump then, at 100 times the fatality rate I'm sure it's more dangerous than no AAD/RSL.

To the BASE jumper, the fun of the jumps are worth the increased risk. To the skydiver, the fun of the extra jumps are worth the increased risk.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

Sigh. For Christ's sake, no it isn't. Nor is it a road by death-wishers to certain death.

This thread is rife with statements on each extreme of ridiculousness.

[NWFlyer 2]

ianyapxw

I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

No it's not. It's a sport where the risk can be managed, but it ain't safe.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Instead, I think we need to wake the fuck up and learn what we need to learn from these incidents - that altitude awareness (and taking action based on that altitude awareness) is your #1 job from the second you leave the airplane till the second your feet touch the ground.

That actually is #2.

#1 is is gear selection.
Don't buy gear that is problematic or a reserve that is known to take longer to open than others.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[NWFlyer 2]

masterrigger1

Quote

Instead, I think we need to wake the fuck up and learn what we need to learn from these incidents - that altitude awareness (and taking action based on that altitude awareness) is your #1 job from the second you leave the airplane till the second your feet touch the ground.

That actually is #2.

#1 is is gear selection.
Don't buy gear that is problematic or a reserve that is known to take longer to open than others.

MEL

Fair enough, but I did qualify it to the time period between leaving the plane and landing. At that point, the gear choices (and other choices, like whether to jump in high winds, etc.) have already been made.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wmw999 2,120]

Dude, I think you should consider asking more questions and listening to the answers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ianyapxw 0]

For NWFlyer as well.

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/skydiving8.htm

http://www.livescience.com/5350-truth-skydiving-risks.html

http://news.discovery.com/adventure/extreme-sports/how-common-are-skydiving-accidents.htm

By the way, I also learnt a couple of weeks back that 13 in 1000 health care professionals in Australia end up with a serious injury.

Sure, skydiving is 'dangerous', but lots of people don't understand how dangerous daily life is.

I'll take my chances.

[ianyapxw 0]

btw, I've replied to the above two.

I know I'm quite a forceful guy with my opinions and stuff (not saying it's right), but I am open for discussions. It's just how I learn. I'm not trying to say I know more or I'm better than others, but I am a much less dogmatic person that I actually seem

[wmw999 2,120]

Talk to people in person. Real people, who can show you things.

It's a more effective way to learn, and then you realize what you sound like when you tell people with years of experience to google skydiving.

Skydiving is not safe. It does have generally-manageable risks, but people regularly die doing this. Yeah, they die falling off ladders, too, but the chance of dying skydiving, per second/instance/participant, is significantly elevated over nearly anything but BASE.

And as a future BASE jumper, understand that you'll be expected to find a mentor and actually listen to them.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ianyapxw 0]

I know we're moving in to controversial territory concerning friends/loved ones and I've no wish to also derail this thread.

I probably used the term 'safe' too liberally, but I also believe that there are many dangerous everyday activities.

I rest my case.

[grue 1]

Larhsw

There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to jump with an AAD, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord and coward.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

edit: Reworded for clarity. I don't think someone is a coward for jumping with an AAD, I think someone is a coward for telling other people how to manage their risk.

cavete terrae.

[Andy9o8 0]

Seriously? ? Calling him a coward? What the fuck is wrong with people in this thread?

[grue 1]

They're effectively mandatory here in Australia, and it shits me to tears. It drives up the cost of jumping dramatically, and any used AAD is sold instantly at almost any price below retail for a new unit.

Frankly if they weren't grounded here, I'd have bought an Argus and never turned it on just to satisfy the requirement, but alas the nanny mentality won't allow that. Xenu forbid adults might make decisions about their own life.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

Andy9o8

Seriously? ? Calling him a coward? What the fuck is wrong with people in this thread?

Taking away options from someone else because you think the choice is too risky is the mark of a coward. That's my opinion, and I'll stand by it.

Nobody is telling him he can't jump without an AAD, yet he wants everyone to think like him? Fuck that, this is why society is becoming full of beige cardigan-wearing bubble-wrapped nannytards.

I don't have any interest in jumping a 2-digit Velo, but I'm not trying to tell other people they can't. Why? Because that person already had parents, and likely doesn't need or want another.

cavete terrae.

[Larhsw 1]

grue

***
There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to be a coward, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man? You can choose not to use an aad or rsl or a skyhook for all I care, I really don't care if you kill yourself because you are "uncovardly". I am not taking any choices away from anyone, and I am not saying there should be any mandatory pieces of equipment imposed on you. I simply stated my opinion on aad's and skyhooks, and the fact that my German friend probably would be alive had she used at least an rsl. Grow the fuck up.

[grue 1]

Larhsw

******
There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to be a coward, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man? You can choose not to use an aad or rsl or a skyhook for all I care, I really don't care if you kill yourself because you are "uncovardly". I am not taking any choices away from anyone, and I am not saying there should be any mandatory pieces of equipment imposed on you. I simply stated my opinion on aad's and skyhooks, and the fact that my German friend probably would be alive had she used at least an rsl. Grow the fuck up.

How else can I possibly interpret "I believe they should be reqired. ", which is what you said? That is PRECISELY what you said in your first post, and the complete opposite of this post wherein you are saying you aren't taking choices away from anyone, or making equipment mandatory.

Yes, she probably would have lived if she'd used an RSL* but she made the choice not to jump with one and now she's become yet another fatality that could have been avoided with a different decision tree. However, it was in the end HER decision to make, and not ours.




* RSLs aren't isn't what this thread is about, and most of my objections to mandatory AADs do not apply to RSLs. HOWEVER, I see no reason to mandate RSL usage, either.

cavete terrae.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

NWFlyer

***
I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

No it's not. It's a sport where the risk can be managed, but it ain't safe.

so is skydiving safe or not?! i came into this sport thinking it was dangerous, then i find out its safe, then during my aff I'm told its dangerious, then once i got my license I'm informed its safe... but i keep getting all these mixed opinions if its safe or not! well, which is it?!

back to thread topic. i don't use an aad, they are expensive! if they become mandatory who's gonna give me an aad? is the government going to distribute these things or the uspa? if they say the don't have the money what makes them think i do? yes i do believe in them and would have no problem owning one. even had a friend saved by one, but force it upon me unless you are going to put one in my hand.

as for as rsl's are concerned. i believe in them, i use one now and will always prefer to have one. have i jump without one? yes. but they are cheap enough that there's no excuse not to get one unless you firmly believe that an rsl will kill you.

[Boomerdog 0]

In looking at all of the accidents in the last three months, the only accident where there is a clear indication an AAD might have made considerable difference is the fatality in Otay, CA. Pending any final reporting from Eloy, the cutaway was at a low altitude and perhaps at a descent speed where the AAD would not activate. Other fatalities resulted from collisions at low altitudes where recovery was not possible etc etc.

I have an AAD and a MARD. It is my desire to mitigate as much risk as possible. Others have to decide for themselves. The problem is that there are meddling do gooders out there always with solutions in search of a problem and in a world of sound bites of 15 seconds or less, the press will have a hey day once they mix a little knowledge with sensationalism and turn the tide of public opinion against us "crazy" skydivers. For now, I think it's an individual's decision but as a community, we might want to give an ear to the grumblings of some of the whuffos out there who have no problem whatsoever in regulating everything...even where ya take a dump.

[skypuppy 1]

mrkeske

AADs are mandatory at most DZs

Can you back this up? There are dz's around where they're mandatory, yes. But I don't think they're the majority around here, other than student operations...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

Larhsw

******
There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to be a coward, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man? You can choose not to use an aad or rsl or a skyhook for all I care, I really don't care if you kill yourself because you are "uncovardly". I am not taking any choices away from anyone, and I am not saying there should be any mandatory pieces of equipment imposed on you. I simply stated my opinion on aad's and skyhooks, and the fact that my German friend probably would be alive had she used at least an rsl. Grow the fuck up.

You actually said right in your quote, and it's right here at the beginning of this post, that you 'believe they should be required". That sounds to me like you want to take choices away from everyone, or don't you get that?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[billvon 2,394]

>In light of the recent fatality in Eloy during the big way attempt--and many
>others--are we heading toward mandatory AAD requirements?

In light of that incident? No - an AAD would not have helped, and indeed dependence on the AAD may lead to such fatalities. Thus mandatory AAD's would hurt, not help.

Case in point - there were two incidents at Rantoul one year due to people cutting away too low. They both had AAD's and they both died. It is quite possible that over-reliance on an AAD led them to be a bit more complacent over getting a reserve over their heads in time.

[SoCalJumper 0]

billvon

>In light of the recent fatality in Eloy during the big way attempt--and many others--are we heading toward mandatory AAD requirements?

In light of that incident? No - an AAD would not have helped, and indeed dependence on the AAD may lead to such fatalities. Thus mandatory AAD's would hurt, not help.

Case in point - there were two incidents at Rantoul one year due to people cutting away too low. They both had AAD's and they both died. It is quite possible that over-reliance on an AAD led them to be a bit more complacent over getting a reserve over their heads in time.

I don't think an AAD would have done any good either. I think a Skyhook may have. Again may have.

In reference to the recent Eloy fatality what appears to me to have happened is it was a low speed malfunction at a lower altitude and to much time was spent trying to fix it or not. With a high speed mal clearly it's a problem which demands emergency procedures immediately.

With a low speed mal there can be a false sense that "Oh this isn't that bad I can fix this. Very dangerous and this is why a firm hard deck needs to be established.

Again I am only speculating here about the Eloy incident.

[katzas 0]

Some of the points you make are the same as I have after I did a detailed point of failure analysis of both the current popular choices on the market.
I won't list all of them here--but there are some. Cutting the loop is, as you point out, exactly what they are both designed to do which, in my humble opinion, is far from an ideal solution. Ideally, an AAD should mimic as closely as possible the skydiver's actions in an emergency--that being to pull the pin out of the loop. To my knowledge there is no AAD currently in favor that does this. There is an AAD that does that without the use of pyrotechnics and vulnerable solid state devices powered by a battery. I am sure there are some deficiencies and anecdotal stories that can be listed against that device as well. Any mechanical or electrical device can malfunction. Combine both mechanical and electrical components and the malfunction risk increases. Layer a pyrotechnic device into that mix and it increases again.

Am I confident that I can handle an emergency properly? Yes--and have done so in the past on more than one occasion. Am I equally confident that every single licensed skydiver who died was just as confident as I am and never expected to be in a situation where they either couldn't (unconscious or otherwise impaired) initiate those procedures or didn't do it in time because of loss of altitude awareness? Yes. Am I confident that given a "do-over" those dead brothers and sisters would have used an RSL or an AAD would make that choice? Yes again. That being said, I will jump with an AAD and a skyhook. I don't advocate mandatory use.....I dislike government mandates intensely....but having done the research and read the reports I choose to do so just as I and all of you chose to skydive. If others don't choose to use one--that is their choice as well.
Use or non use, in my opinion, does not define whether you are a "better" skydiver. It may, however, define the difference between life and death. Blue skies.

[SStewart 13]

Mandated by who?

Onward and Upward!