WILL AADS BECOME MANDATORY?

[virgin-burner 1]

Larhsw

*********RSL's and skyhooks, the answers to all skydivers problems..

how about you pull at reasonable altitudes and make your decisions before ants look like fucking cows!?

just for the record, i'm a basejumper too and in skydiving i pull around 1200 meters!

Well, there are times when you simply can't pull at 1200 meters… On bigways I often pull at, or even below, 2000 ft for safety reasons.

then adjust your decision-making accordingly.. and here i was thinking minimum pull altitudes were 2500ft, guess i was wrong or bigway-jumpers are "breaking the law" regularly.

Well, I guess you have never been on a bigway with jumpers ahead, to the left, right and even above and/or below at deployment altitude. This is not about "breaking the law" but to avoid a potentially serious situation for everyone. It is all about reading the situation correctly and making good judgment calls for the benefit of everyone, not only yourself

you can try talking your way out all you want while missing my point; adjust your decision-making accordingly!

i've seen a guy cutting away at 300 meters, he just had enough time to pull his toggles before he landed in the trees. that shit happens if you're a toggle monkey and s-turn until your canopy decides to twist up on you (totally avoidable by proper decision-making!!!).

do you really want to rely on some BACKUP-device to save your life? and you want to make it mandatory for everyone?

we've had plenty of people already that probably thought "hey, i got a skyhook, i can still cutaway.." - until they couldnt. and we've also already had documented cases of missrigging. adjust your decision-making accordingly..

and nope, i havent been on bigways, that shit's too scary, i stay with small canopies and BASEjumping!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

ianyapxw

Well this thread is pretty much the same "AAD/RSL can save you" and "there's no reason not to use one", blah blah blah.

I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

Why don't never BASE jump then, at 100 times the fatality rate I'm sure it's more dangerous than no AAD/RSL.

To the BASE jumper, the fun of the jumps are worth the increased risk. To the skydiver, the fun of the extra jumps are worth the increased risk.

skydiving deaths 1/100'000
BASEjumping deaths 1/2'500

risk times 40

skydiving injuries 1/60'000
BASEinjuries 1/250

risk times 240

that's the numbers i got, but for all we know, they're probably all wrong..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[ianyapxw 0]

It's not my job to decide for you what is 'safe'. Obviously to a BASE jumper skydiving is probably considered 'safe' and to a bowler it's considered 'dangerous'. I've linked a few articles, take a look at that and decide for yourself.

And also check out fatality rates for other things, like other sports, industries and workplaces, and decide for yourself.

[Hellis 0]

ianyapxw

Obviously to a BASE jumper skydiving is probably considered 'safe' and to a bowler it's considered 'dangerous'.

No.
Skydiving is still dangerous.
In BASE most of the jump is all on you, but in skydiving you have meatmissiles all over the sky.
And one day one of those missiles might hit you because he thought it was a really cool idea to spiral under canopy with his eyes closed while the GoPro was in his hand aimed at himself.

Can you please be quite now for a few hundred jumps?

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind

You've never heard of one malfunctioning?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[katzas 0]

I am going to assume that the question you asked, "mandated by who (whom)?" is a serious question and not rhetorical. Well, let's see--mandated by DZ operators, by their insurance company, by the USPA, by the FAA, by local or state ordinance in the DZ's local.....any number of those or all of them could do it. For me it's "mandated" by logic and common sense. But that's me--and again, for the record, I do not favor mandating AAD/RSL use. I choose to. You make your own choices.

[Di0 1]

ridebmxbikes

so is skydiving safe or not?! i came into this sport thinking it was dangerous, then i find out its safe, then during my aff I'm told its dangerious, then once i got my license I'm informed its safe... but i keep getting all these mixed opinions if its safe or not! well, which is it?!

Well, if you don't know if something is safe or not, then it's not. Easy as that. :)

Skydiving ends up in a death every 100,000 jumps, in other words an average fun jumper that jumps 2000 times in his life has a 2% probability of ending up dead at some point.
This is consistent with the other statistics: 30000 active skydivers in the US and about 30 deaths a year, i.e. 1 out of 1000 skydivers will die every year, in 10-20 years of activity you have 1-2 % chances of dying.

2%, it's certainly not suicidal, but it's not my definition of "preferred activity for all those safety conscious people out there" either. Know your risks, accept them.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Larhsw 1]

skypuppy

*********
There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to be a coward, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man? You can choose not to use an aad or rsl or a skyhook for all I care, I really don't care if you kill yourself because you are "uncovardly". I am not taking any choices away from anyone, and I am not saying there should be any mandatory pieces of equipment imposed on you. I simply stated my opinion on aad's and skyhooks, and the fact that my German friend probably would be alive had she used at least an rsl. Grow the fuck up.

You actually said right in your quote, and it's right here at the beginning of this post, that you 'believe they should be required". That sounds to me like you want to take choices away from everyone, or don't you get that?

You guys need to take a look at what you are saying and how your are saying it…

Suggesting that jumpers should use an AAD or any other safety equipment will not in any way limit how you skydive or impose any restrictions on how you practice your sport. You can still jump any way you want to, pull how low you want to and take all the chances you wish. You may also opt not to turn your AAD on if this makes skydiving more exciting or dangerous to you, or you can simply unhook the RSL if you don't want to use it.

This discussion is much like the arguments in the 1960 when the idea of seat belts in cars was introduced. People thought is was unnecessary, but the fact of the matter is that seat belts save lives. Some people opt not to wear a seat belt, and that is a personal choice, but I don't know how many people in this forum would buy a car without seat belt fitted today. Would you? The seatbelt doesn't change the way you drive your car, or how fast you can go, but it will most likely save you life in an accident.

The same goes for an AAD when you tumble unconscious through 900 ft because some fucker hit you in free fall, no matter how stupid you think it may be that someone should dare suggest to impose something on you.

[skypuppy 1]

Larhsw

************
There is no thinkable practical reason for jumping w/o an AAD in my mind, and I believe they should be reqired. An AAD would not have saved the jumper in question though, but a Skyhook most definetly would have. Probably also a regular RSL.

If you want to be a coward, fine, but don't take choices away from other people, because that's the mark of a total shitlord.

There are plenty of reasons to jump without an AAD, and just because you're too unimaginative to think of any doesn't make them any less valid.

What the fuck is wrong with you, man? You can choose not to use an aad or rsl or a skyhook for all I care, I really don't care if you kill yourself because you are "uncovardly". I am not taking any choices away from anyone, and I am not saying there should be any mandatory pieces of equipment imposed on you. I simply stated my opinion on aad's and skyhooks, and the fact that my German friend probably would be alive had she used at least an rsl. Grow the fuck up.

You actually said right in your quote, and it's right here at the beginning of this post, that you 'believe they should be required". That sounds to me like you want to take choices away from everyone, or don't you get that?

You guys need to take a look at what you are saying and how your are saying it…

Suggesting that jumpers should use an AAD or any other safety equipment will not in any way limit how you skydive or impose any restrictions on how you practice your sport. You can still jump any way you want to, pull how low you want to and take all the chances you wish. You may also opt not to turn your AAD on if this makes skydiving more exciting or dangerous to you, or you can simply unhook the RSL if you don't want to use it.

This discussion is much like the arguments in the 1960 when the idea of seat belts in cars was introduced. People thought is was unnecessary, but the fact of the matter is that seat belts save lives. Some people opt not to wear a seat belt, and that is a personal choice, but I don't know how many people in this forum would buy a car without seat belt fitted today. Would you? The seatbelt doesn't change the way you drive your car, or how fast you can go, but it will most likely save you life in an accident.

The same goes for an AAD when you tumble unconscious through 900 ft because some fucker hit you in free fall, no matter how stupid you think it may be that someone should dare suggest to impose something on you.

Again, you said aads 'should be required'. that means you are in favor of them being mandatory. The mere fact that you want to make people spend money they may not have to buy an aad, means that quite possibly they won't be able to skydive the way they want to. The fact that you even suggest making people buy one and then tell them they don't have to turn it on is hypocritical. Either you believe it should be mandatory, or it shouldn't, shouldn't it?

The seat belt example is erroneous - a seat belt manufactured in the factory and put in the car there increases the cost of the car by what, maybe $25 for a car that costs 15 grand or more? Mandating an aad adds what $1500 for a rig that might cost 7 grand? or a used rig worth 3 grand that still needs the same$1500 aad?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[katzas 0]

anyapxw wrote:
Well this thread is pretty much the same "AAD/RSL can save you" and "there's no reason not to use one", blah blah blah.

I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

Why don't never BASE jump then, at 100 times the fatality rate I'm sure it's more dangerous than no AAD/RSL.

To the BASE jumper, the fun of the jumps are worth the increased risk. To the skydiver, the fun of the extra jumps are worth the increased risk.


See--here is a prime example of an individual making a statement(s) that he would have us believe is an axiom.
"To the skydiver the fun of the extra jumps are worth the risk."
Perhaps, more accurately put, to YOU as a skydiver the fun of the extra jumps (presumably the money you would have spent on an RSL or an AAD you will spend on jumps) is worth the risk. Well, let's see......an RSL--costs what? $100.00? That's the cost equivalent of four jumps at most DZs in the USA. Even a skyhook costs under $300.00 which makes it 12 jumps. An AAD costs about $1300.00 or about 50 jumps using the same cost per jump. Spread out over say, two years time that makes it 2 jumps per year in the case of the plain ol' RSL or 6 jumps a year in the case of a skyhook. Admittedly an AAD bumps the number up--but--if you use the Cypress' lifespan of 12 years that makes the jump to cost number go down to about 4 jumps a year (ignoring the likelihood that jump prices never go down but most assuredly do go up over time) but I think the point is obvious. Choose to use or don't choose to use--it's all up to you--as it should be but please do a bit more thinking about making statements that justify your decisions.

As to the statement that people are avoiding the fact that others want to save money......try as I might I don't see anyone in any response saying that or avoiding the topic. Skydiving is an expensive sport. My philosophy is that there are at least two things you don't want to do on the dirt cheap. Heart surgery and skydiving. But that's me.

[katzas 0]

Wow. Ignoring for the moment the must have vs the option of having--let's take a look at the monetary segment of this discussion. Today's AADs are essentially microprocessors hooked up to a pyrotechnic device. Now, I am old enough to remember when a cell phone (another microprocessor driven device) cost a crapload of money. Today they practically give the damned things away. Why? Economy of scale for one. I have no idea how many AADs are sold every year--but I bet it's under 500 from both Cypress and Vigil (to the sport market--military is another whole can of worms). Production costs vs profit in that quantity are bound to be very high. Sooooo......if every rig purchased from today onward HAD to have one (and again, please, I am not advocating that)--that production number is bound to go up significantly thereby driving the cost down. The seat belt comparison you use is valid and proves this point--every car has to have them so they cost bupkus. OK so far? Now--as to what it costs today. According to your profile you have 3300 jumps over 34 years--roughly 100 jumps per year. Can you honestly say that an additional $1500.00 would impair your ability to jump as you want to? If you purchased today's equivalent of an AAD 34 years ago (like the FXC back then) the cost would be about $130.00 per year (assuming replacement of a Cypress every 12 years). At today's cost per jump that would make five fewer jumps per year--or one half less jump per month for twelve months--assuming you used that money for jump tickets. I know that jumps cost less many years ago--but the cost in today's dollars was probably higher. So--what is the price point that makes an AAD worth it? $1000? $500?

Sorry--but I just don't see it. If you--or anyone--could ask our deceased brothers and sisters who died because they didn't have an AAD if they would buy one....well, I don't think I need to finish that sentence. Choose or don't--it's personal choice--but as far as the cost rationale--well--it just ain't there.

[gowlerk 1,905]

Quote

WILL AADS BECOME MANDATORY?

Only in the Nanny States, where they already are. Thankfully you are not my nanny.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[skypuppy 1]

katzas

anyapxw wrote:
Well this thread is pretty much the same "AAD/RSL can save you" and "there's no reason not to use one", blah blah blah.

I don't see why people avoid the fact that others want to save money, and even if it doubles your chance of dying it doesn't change the fact that skydiving is an extremely safe sport.

Why don't never BASE jump then, at 100 times the fatality rate I'm sure it's more dangerous than no AAD/RSL.

To the BASE jumper, the fun of the jumps are worth the increased risk. To the skydiver, the fun of the extra jumps are worth the increased risk.


See--here is a prime example of an individual making a statement(s) that he would have us believe is an axiom.
"To the skydiver the fun of the extra jumps are worth the risk."
Perhaps, more accurately put, to YOU as a skydiver the fun of the extra jumps (presumably the money you would have spent on an RSL or an AAD you will spend on jumps) is worth the risk. Well, let's see......an RSL--costs what? $100.00? That's the cost equivalent of four jumps at most DZs in the USA. Even a skyhook costs under $300.00 which makes it 12 jumps. An AAD costs about $1300.00 or about 50 jumps using the same cost per jump. Spread out over say, two years time that makes it 2 jumps per year in the case of the plain ol' RSL or 6 jumps a year in the case of a skyhook. Admittedly an AAD bumps the number up--but--if you use the Cypress' lifespan of 12 years that makes the jump to cost number go down to about 4 jumps a year (ignoring the likelihood that jump prices never go down but most assuredly do go up over time) but I think the point is obvious. Choose to use or don't choose to use--it's all up to you--as it should be but please do a bit more thinking about making statements that justify your decisions.

As to the statement that people are avoiding the fact that others want to save money......try as I might I don't see anyone in any response saying that or avoiding the topic. Skydiving is an expensive sport. My philosophy is that there are at least two things you don't want to do on the dirt cheap. Heart surgery and skydiving. But that's me.

Again, it was YOU who said it 'should be required'.

The initial cost is not the all-in cost.

You are seeming to forget the fact of the ongoing maintenance of cypres 4 and 8 year checks, which necessitated taking them out of the rig for a period. That is an additional cost and also, what do you do when the aad is being checked? Not jump? or rent another?

You've also left out the fact that many skydivers have multiple rigs. Their secondary rigs may not have cost them much as deals sometimes come along, but buying new aads for each will multiply that cost.

Then there's the fact that for some disciplines, aads are actually NOT recommended. just as in crw you aren't going to want to have an rsl hooked up.

I have no problem if people want to have an aad in their rig. I do have a problem if they tell ME I have to. And again, in your post you stated it 'should be required'.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[katzas 0]

Believe me, I agree--thankfully I am not your Nanny. By the way, who is?

[katzas 0]

Now this is getting scary. Maybe I expect too much from the skydiving community that is allegedly smarter and more perceptive than your average whuffo. Silly me.

WHERE IN ANY POST THAT I MADE DO YOU FIND THE WORDS "SHOULD BE REQUIRED" THAT YOU SAY I USED? In fact I believe that in most if not all of my posts I state that I am NOT in favor of mandatory AAD use and emphasize choice. So--show me where I advocated mandatory use of AADs or retract your statement.

Maybe I am wasting my time by doing this--but what the hell--I certainly don't have anything better to do right this minute.
At the almost certain eventuality of casting pearls before swine I will try one more time to place before you the monetary analysis of AAD vs no AAD.

It is true that the Cypress AAD must be returned to a refurb and calibration center at the fourth year and eighth year of it's twelve year lifespan. I didn't include that cost because it would make no meaningful difference in the calculations--but--I will now. To my knowledge the cost to return a Cypress is about $250 (give or take a buck or two). That is done twice--so the cost of $500 can be amortized over 12 years. Got it so far? That adds a whopping $41.66 per year to the cost--or to put it another way--about 1.5 jumps per year--or to put it in even simpler terms--a couple cases (or in Canada ONE case of Export) of decent beer--per year.
See why I didn't include that cost in the initial calculations? It's mice nuts.

As to the down time while your Cypress is being checked.....well, it seems that a lot of skydivers time that for their down time OR buy the other AAD on the market (Vigil) that does not require return to the factory every four years and has a service life of 20 years (which saves you the whopping sum of $41.66 a year).

As to skydivers having multiple rigs--well--gee--if someone can afford to have two or three complete rigs then I guess the financial considerations become even LESS meaningful. I mean--if someone has say, $12-15,000.00 worth of skydiving stuff then..........well, golly--good on them.

For those of us who enjoy CREW--and to answer your question which I thought would be quite obvious--there's a little button on the AAD--it's called "ON/OFF". With an RSL there's a little ring on it that, if you pull it, will disconnect it--you know--just like that little button on the AAD. Sigh.

I note that you didn't mention the cost analysis of adding an RSL. Given that the additional--and one time--cost of adding one is so low I can see why.

I suggest you actually read what I write rather than making unsupportable accusations as to what you think I write. Ready, Fire, Aim generally means you miss the target--not to mention suffering the embarrassment that inevitably follows.
Blue skies.

[SStewart 13]

katzas

I am going to assume that the question you asked, "mandated by who (whom)?" is a serious question and not rhetorical. Well, let's see--mandated by DZ operators, by their insurance company, by the USPA, by the FAA, by local or state ordinance in the DZ's local.....any number of those or all of them could do it. For me it's "mandated" by logic and common sense. But that's me--and again, for the record, I do not favor mandating AAD/RSL use. I choose to. You make your own choices.

Serious question.
In the US individual dropzones are free to require AADs if they choose to but not many do, only a handful that I can think of and that leaves enforcement totally up to them. I do know of one DZ that made AADs mandatory about 10 years ago and the fatalities they have had since then were canopy related and the AAD made no difference. No saves that I am aware of.

Insurance companies? Not likely they would even know what an AAD is but there is no insurance per se for skydiving. Operators insure their airplanes, individuals have 3rd party liability through USPA. Individuals may also purchase private insurance that covers injury or death from skydiving. I know of no policy that requires the insured to use an AAD. I just do not see an insurance company refusing to insure an airplane unless all occupants jump with an AAD.

USPA requires AADs for student and tandem jumps but compliance is voluntary. USPA has no legal authority to enforce anything. The most they can do is kick you out of their club if you break their rules and they find out about it.

The FAA is really the only entity that has any legal authority to regulate and enforce aviation activity. I do not see the FAA getting involved in this, at least I hope not. Why would they since most deaths in skydiving will not be affected by the use of an AAD? They are just as likely to require all skydivers to jump bigger canopies and that is not going to happen.

Local, state, county, and city governments would have to pass new laws to ban jumping without an AAD. I don't think most voters see this as a pressing issue.

Too big a can of worms to open here, I suggest we leave this up to the individual and/or the drop zones. No need to get the whuffos involved.

Onward and Upward!

[RiggerLee 61]

Actually the bigger canopy thing might happen although through an indirect route by the certification process.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[SStewart 13]

I suppose anything is possible, I just think the FAA has bigger fish to fry. In my experience we are just a nuisance to them and they only get involved in our activities when they have to.

I really hope the insurance sleazebags don't get involved in this.

Onward and Upward!

[skypuppy 1]

WHERE IN ANY POST THAT I MADE DO YOU FIND THE WORDS "SHOULD BE REQUIRED" THAT YOU SAY I USED?

You are correct there - I had confused your post with Larhsw. sorry about that.

However, as to the cost of the aad, it is entirely possible for experienced jumpers to buy 2nd and even third rigs for under 4 grand each, even under 3 grand. However expecting them to buy a aad for each of those could increase the cost by 50%.

So cost is a factor, any way you want to break it down. You may disagree with it. You may have lots of money. You may have different priorities. That doesn't make other peoples' perceptions of the cost any less valid.

But certainly cost is not the only factor. There are disciplines for which aads are not recommended or necessary, and since no one is stopping you from using one, there is no reason to force others to wear them, if they are licenced and current.

As far as the rsl we weren't discussing cost-efficacy of rsl's anyways, I could care less about rsl's, my only comment is that they're not recommended for crw.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Southern_Man 0]

SStewart

Serious question.
In the US individual dropzones are free to require AADs if they choose to but not many do, only a handful that I can think of and that leaves enforcement totally up to them.

I do not know how many dropzones require AADs but I believe every one in my state requires them. A few dropzones I have visited in nearby states also required them. I believe, but don't have personal knowledge, that they are required more in some regions than in others. Enforcement is totally up to the DZ.

Quote

USPA requires AADs for student and tandem jumps but compliance is voluntary. USPA has no legal authority to enforce anything. The most they can do is kick you out of their club if you break their rules and they find out about it.

Yes, pretty much all USPA rules are on the "honor system" as USPA has no consistent enforcement ability an no authority except by not allowing DZ group membership.

Quote

The FAA is really the only entity that has any legal authority to regulate and enforce aviation activity. I do not see the FAA getting involved in this, at least I hope not. Why would they since most deaths in skydiving will not be affected by the use of an AAD? They are just as likely to require all skydivers to jump bigger canopies and that is not going to happen.

They already require AADs for tandem jumping.

Quote

Local, state, county, and city governments would have to pass new laws to ban jumping without an AAD. I don't think most voters see this as a pressing issue.

Such laws are of pretty dubious authority. The Feds pretty much have a legal monopoly on regulating jumping.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[gowlerk 1,905]

katzas

Believe me, I agree--thankfully I am not your Nanny. By the way, who is?

I am my own keeper, and that is the point.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billbooth 10]

I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

[gowlerk 1,905]

billbooth

I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

Neither can I. Do you know someone who does? What kind of life preservation device are you referring to?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Di0 1]

gowlerk

***I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

Neither can I. Do you know someone who does? What kind of life preservation device are you referring to?

I think he was referring to people that don't use a skyhook because "that damn thing costs a whole 300 dollars!!!".
Then they spend just as much in customized stripe colors and embroideries.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Di0

******I can't believe anyone would make the argument that their own life is not worth $300.

Neither can I. Do you know someone who does? What kind of life preservation device are you referring to?

I think he was referring to people that don't use a skyhook because "that damn thing costs a whole 300 dollars!!!".
Then they spend just as much in customized stripe colors and embroideries.

Some of us can't get a skyhook for 300 bucks! I've asked and was toldno because its a container modification. So if I want one it'll cost a lot more than that. Now Im sure you were talking about people that buy new rigs or at least has a rig from a company that's still around. I just saw an opening for a post