Changing Vigil II activation altitude

[mcstain 0]

Is it possible to change the activation altitude on a Vigil II? Just to be clear, I'm NOT talking about entering an offset to account for a difference between the takeoff and landing area. I'm asking if it is possible to program the Vigil to activate at a higher altitude on each jump (e.g., 1000ft in belly to earth orientation as opposed to the standard 840ft), without affecting any of the other parameters.

I won't be changing this setting without first speaking to instructors at my DZ, so let's not turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of changing this parameter, but I want to find out whether it is even possible.

[Doug_Davis 0]

Quote

I'm NOT talking about entering an offset to account for a difference between the takeoff and landing area.

I called them and asked them if they had plans to move to a changeable system like Cypress as I was looking at buying all new equipment. IIRC they told me their system has always been changeable, in the manner you mention above. From what they told me thats the only way to change the normal opening altitude.

Typically in promode their cutter activates as high as 840' (580' if falling face to earth). So either #1 you switch it to student where it activates at 1040' or #2 you enter an altitude correction which is a DZ offset but has the same affect of setting a higher activation height.
They said this offset is remembered and used by the system each time you jump, until the offset is returned to 0'.

[mcstain 0]

Interesting. From what I've read, the Vigils are the same as the Cypres units, in that they disarm at around 150ft on the way down. It is not advised to increase the Cypres activation altitude by programming an offset, as this also affects the disarm altitude. I wonder if it is the same for Vigil.

The concern would be that if you increase the activation altitude on the Vigil by programming a +150ft offset, then your unit will disarm at 300ft instead. While 300ft would still be cutting it close, I'd rather my Vigil didn't simply turn itself off if it hadn't fired my reserve by then.

[monkycndo 0]

At 300', you might get line stretch.

The difference between an open and closed casket.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[mcstain 0]

Ok sure, but it's still a valid question. For argument's sake, let's say someone wanted to program their activation altitude to be 1,250ft. Does this mean that the Vigil will now disarm at 550ft?

[Doug_Davis 0]

Valid question. I dont know that answer as I didnt ask them. I decided to buy a Cypres.

[Southern_Man 0]

mcstain

Ok sure, but it's still a valid question. For argument's sake, let's say someone wanted to program their activation altitude to be 1,250ft. Does this mean that the Vigil will now disarm at 550ft?

I called and asked them that question. It was about a year ago but I believe that was the answer I got. I do believe the offset changes at 100ft. intervals, so it would be 1240 and 540 in actuality.


changing to student mode is not a good idea.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[mcstain 0]

Ok thanks for the info. I'm planning on emailing them to confirm.

[hillson 0]

Doug_Davis

Typically in promode their cutter activates as high as 840' (580' if falling face to earth). So either #1 you switch it to student where it activates at 1040' or #2 you enter an altitude correction which is a DZ offset but has the same affect of o 0'.

Incorrect. Belly to earth it is ~840 ft. Other attitudes such as back to earth etc is can be as high as ~1040. Similar to Cypres in that regard though the Vigil is ~100 feet higher across the board.

Changing to student mode isn't the optimal solution as the activation speed is slower and there is the possibility of setting it off under canopy depending on the situation.

RTFM

[mcstain 0]

hillson

***
Typically in promode their cutter activates as high as 840' (580' if falling face to earth). So either #1 you switch it to student where it activates at 1040' or #2 you enter an altitude correction which is a DZ offset but has the same affect of o 0'.

Incorrect. Belly to earth it is ~840 ft. Other attitudes such as back to earth etc is can be as high as ~1040. Similar to Cypres in that regard though the Vigil is ~100 feet higher across the board.

Changing to student mode isn't the optimal solution as the activation speed is slower and there is the possibility of setting it off under canopy depending on the situation.

RTFM

Well spotted. I didn't read the post you quoted as closely as I should have. I've got the manual in front of me now, and this is what it says:

Quote

If the Vigil® is set in PRO mode, it will activate at 840 Ft or 256 m above the ground, at a falling speed of 78 mph or 35m/sec. It is well accepted that this minimum activation level must be guaranteed whatever the position of the skydiver.
If the skydiver is falling in a back to earth position, the reading will reflect the correct pressure, since the sensor is not influenced by a depression, but if the skydiver is falling face to earth, then the sensor located in the depression zone will read a pressure up to 10mbar lower, or an altitude 260 ft. or 80 m above the real altitude, and will, in this case, activate later, or 260 ft. or 80m lower, i.e. at an actual altitude of 580 ft. or 176 m above the ground level, which would be too low.

Therefore, a compensation of + 260 ft. or + 80 m above the nominal activation altitude has been integrated into the software. For example in PRO mode, a programmed activation altitude of 1100 ft. or 336 m has been set to ensure that, notwithstanding the skydiver’s body position, activation will always be at a minimum altitude of 840ft or 256m (actual altitude) above the ground level.

• In a test chamber, the activation in PRO mode will be triggered at 1100 ft (840 ft + 260 ft) or 336m (256m
+ 80m) as there is no depression zone.


This still doesn't answer the original question but does clarify the point regarding activation altitude in different body positions.

[Doug_Davis 0]

hillson

***
Typically in promode their cutter activates as high as 840' (580' if falling face to earth). So either #1 you switch it to student where it activates at 1040' or #2 you enter an altitude correction which is a DZ offset but has the same affect of o 0'.

Incorrect. Belly to earth it is ~840 ft. Other attitudes such as back to earth etc is can be as high as ~1040. Similar to Cypres in that regard though the Vigil is ~100 feet higher across the board.

Changing to student mode isn't the optimal solution as the activation speed is slower and there is the possibility of setting it off under canopy depending on the situation.

RTFM

I did RTFM. http://www.vigil.aero/wp-content/uploads/Vigil-II-users-manual-II.0.6.pdf
Misread it last night as to the difference in pressures between back and belly to Earth.

From the manual:

Quote

If the Vigil® is set in PRO mode, it will activate at 840 Ft or 256 m above the ground, at a falling speed of 78 mph or 35m/sec. It is well accepted that this minimum activation level must be guaranteed whatever the position of the skydiver.
If the skydiver is falling in a back to earth position, the reading will reflect the correct pressure, since the sensor is not influenced by a depression, but if the skydiver is falling face to earth, then the sensor located in the depression zone will read a pressure up to 10mbar lower, or an altitude 260 ft. or 80 m above the real altitude, and will, in this case, activate later, or 260 ft. or 80m lower, i.e. at an actual altitude of 580 ft. or 176 m above the ground level, which would be too low.

So its 1100/840 not 840/580.

[gunpaq 1]

Sometimes when we monkey with things that have been factory set we end up being the monkey.

The Vigil II has three settings all with different altitudes: Expert/Student/Tandem.

Simple solution would be to jump on the student setting depending what you intend to do under canopy, etc.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

If anyone chooses to simply use the "student" mode, it is critical that they understand those specific parameters and their impact on:

Canopy flight:
--Maneuvers that would be OK in "Pro" mode, may cause the AAD to fire when in "Student" mode.

Aircraft flight:
--"when opening the door of an aircraft during flight and while in the activation zone (below 500 m or 1.640 ft), it should be verified if there are any Vigils on board set in Student Mode. Certain aircrafts can create a pressure spike that can activate a Vigil AAD when it’s set in Student Mode" (Vigil II owners manual pg 21)

--"When the user decides to ride down with the aircraft in lieu of jumping, the pilot must be advised of the status of your Vigil® to limit his descent rate according to the mode or 45mph (20m/sec) for “STUDENT” and 78mph (35m/sec) for “PRO” or “TANDEM” and set activation altitude (this is especially important for Vigil®’s programmed in “STUDENT” mode). in these circumstances we recommend to switch off the Vigil® if possible." (Vigil II owners manual pg 21)

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Skydivesg 6]

mcstain

Is it possible to change the activation altitude on a Vigil II? Just to be clear, I'm NOT talking about entering an offset to account for a difference between the takeoff and landing area. I'm asking if it is possible to program the Vigil to activate at a higher altitude on each jump (e.g., 1000ft in belly to earth orientation as opposed to the standard 840ft), without affecting any of the other parameters.

I won't be changing this setting without first speaking to instructors at my DZ, so let's not turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of changing this parameter, but I want to find out whether it is even possible.

I'm not sure from where the term "off set" came. It is actually called the "altitude correction" in the manual and to my knowledge the manual does not use the term off set.

The "altitude correction" is the method by which you adjust the activation altitude. Once you set the "altitude correction" it will stay in the Vigil until it is changed back manually by the user.

Let's say you set the "altitude correction" by 300 feet higher (100 meters). Whenever you boot up the Vigil, from that point forward it will always boot up with the "altitude correction" in default.

Assuming the unit is set to "Pro" mode, the screen will show
"P + 300 ft" or, if set to meters "P + 100 m". This will show up in the LCD every time it is booted up until the user changes the "altitude correction" to something else.

This only changes the activation altitude not the standby altitude.

When the Vigil senses that it has climbed in altitude to 150 feet, it goes into "airborne mode" and stays in airborne mode until it descends back to 150 feet at which time it goes back into stand by mode.

The 150 feet never changes regardless of any other setup changes.

mcstain

I'm asking if it is possible to program the Vigil to activate at a higher altitude on each jump ..... without affecting any of the other parameters.

The answer is emphatically - "Yes". Setting an "altitude correction" does not affect any other parameters of the Vigil - only the activation altitude.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.


.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Skydivesg 6]

gunpaq

Sometimes when we monkey with things that have been factory set we end up being the monkey.

The Vigil II has three settings all with different altitudes: Expert/Student/Tandem.

Simple solution would be to jump on the student setting depending what you intend to do under canopy, etc.

People, please do not use the Student mode in an effort to increase the activation altitude. This advice needs to be re-thought.

The Student mode will activate (fire) once it reaches 45 MPH of decent (of course it needs to be at or below the activation altitude).

It is very easy for any average jumper to hit 45 MPH during an aggressive canopy turn with today's faster canopies. It would be even worse with a Cypres. It only takes 29 MPH to activate the Student Cypres.

If you want to increase your activation altitude, simply change it by using the control unit on your AAD.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[gunpaq 1]

Simple solution would be to jump on the student setting depending what you intend to do under canopy, etc. Rather than adjusting settings.

For the difference of two seconds keep it on PRO. You should approach each jump as though you do not have an AAD and skydive to survive.

I rely on my applying the brakes rather than the air bags in my automobile to save me from crashing into something. Likewise the AAD is a vital safety device but only you can be sure to save your own life not a back-up safety device.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[Skydivesg 6]

gunpaq

Simple solution would be to jump on the student setting depending what you intend to do under canopy, etc. Rather than adjusting settings.

For the difference of two seconds keep it on PRO. You should approach each jump as though you do not have an AAD and skydive to survive.

I rely on my applying the brakes rather than the air bags in my automobile to save me from crashing into something. Likewise the AAD is a vital safety device but only you can be sure to save your own life not a back-up safety device.

Just because something is simple doesn't make it correct.

The correct thing to do is change your settings the way the device was designed.

Please do not advise people to set their AAD in Student mode unless they are indeed a student- jumping an appropriate sized student canopy.

This is just not good advice.



Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[mcstain 0]

Skydivesg

I'm not sure from where the term "off set" came. It is actually called the "altitude correction" in the manual and to my knowledge the manual does not use the term off set.

The term offset came from the use of that word in relation to changing the activation altitude of a Cypres in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Gear_and_Rigging_F6/Changing_activation_altitude_on__Cypre_2_P4465101/. The term offset refers to changing a parameter to account for differences between takeoff and landing altitudes, while activation altitude refers to a parameter that solely controls the height at which the cutter fires. The Cypres has two different settings because if you were to change the offset parameter in order to increase the activation altitude, this would also raise the height at which the Cypres disarms. I understand that the Vigil and Cypres are totally different units, but the original question was trying to work out whether this was also the case with the Vigil.

Quote

The "altitude correction" is the method by which you adjust the activation altitude. Once you set the "altitude correction" it will stay in the Vigil until it is changed back manually by the user.

Let's say you set the "altitude correction" by 300 feet higher (50 meters). Whenever you boot up the Vigil, from that point forward it will always boot up with the "altitude correction" in default.

Assuming the unit is set to "Pro" mode, the screen will show
"P + 300 ft" or, if set to meters "P + 100 m". This will show up in the LCD every time it is booted up until the user changes the "altitude correction" to something else.

This only changes the activation altitude not the standby altitude.

When the Vigil senses that it has climbed in altitude to 150 feet, it goes into "airborne mode" and stays in airborne mode until it descends back to 150 feet at which time it goes back into stand by mode.

This is the crux of the question though... when it descends to 150 feet, is it expecting the landing zone to be a different height to the takeoff zone due to the altitude correction parameter?? If it is set to expect the ground to be 300ft higher at landing, will the Vigil now disarm at 450ft (300ft + 150ft) above the height of the takeoff area? It is my understanding that the primary use of the Vigil's altitude correction parameter is to compensate for a discrepancy between the altitude at which you are planning to take off and land.

See the first attachment for a rough diagram I drew to try and explain this. In the diagram, imagine that you have programmed a +300ft altitude correction into the Vigil. You can see that if the landing zone were in fact 300ft higher, then the Vigil would fire at a minimum of 840ft above the landing zone, which equates to 1,140ft above the original takeoff altitude. All fine so far. However, you will also note that the Vigil would be programmed to disarm at 150ft above the landing zone. This equates to disarming at 450ft (300ft + 150ft) above the original takeoff altitude. My question is: if you program a +300ft altitude correction into the Vigil when the takeoff and landing altitudes are the same, will the Vigil now disarm at 450ft above the ground since it is expecting the ground to be higher on landing?

Or in other words: if you were to change this parameter but are taking off and landing at the same altitude, does this affect the window within which the Vigil will operate?

See the second attachment for an example of how the Cypres handles changes made to the activation altitude. You can see that it increases the size of the activation window itself, it doesn't simply shift the window up and down (which is what the offset parameter on the Cypres does). I'm trying to work out whether the Vigil increases the size of the window (as seen in the diagram) or whether it shifts the fixed size window up and down. My suspicion is that because the parameter on the Vigil is designed to compensate for differences in altitude between takeoff and landing, it will operate in the same way as the offset parameter on the Cypres. That is, if takeoff and landing are the same height, but you change the Vigil's activation altitude, it will also affect the height at which the unit disarms.

Quote

The 150 feet never changes regardless of any other setup changes.

150 feet relative to what? Takeoff or landing? Remember that in my question the takeoff and landing altitude are the same, but from what I understand, the Vigil's altitude correction parameter is designed to tell the unit that they are different.

Hopefully I've managed to make myself clear... I feel like it's a complex question, and I'm struggling to put the concept into words.

[damir 1]

I actually increased my activation altitude to 1500 ft. Two things you need to keep in mind. First, is your responsibility to advise everybody that your activation altitude is higher especially when doing big ways. Second, you have to adjust your openings to account for the new activation altitude. For example, I pull at 3000ft no matter what. That way I have 1500 ft just in case. This correction was done over a year ago and as of yet I have not had any issues. I like the extra +450ft, but that's just me.

[Skydivesg 6]

mcstain

***
I'm not sure from where the term "off set" came. It is actually called the "altitude correction" in the manual and to my knowledge the manual does not use the term off set.

The term offset came from the use of that word in relation to changing the activation altitude of a Cypres in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Gear_and_Rigging_F6/Changing_activation_altitude_on__Cypre_2_P4465101/. The term offset refers to changing a parameter to account for differences between takeoff and landing altitudes, while activation altitude refers to a parameter that solely controls the height at which the cutter fires. The Cypres has two different settings because if you were to change the offset parameter in order to increase the activation altitude, this would also raise the height at which the Cypres disarms. I understand that the Vigil and Cypres are totally different units, but the original question was trying to work out whether this was also the case with the Vigil.

Quote

The "altitude correction" is the method by which you adjust the activation altitude. Once you set the "altitude correction" it will stay in the Vigil until it is changed back manually by the user.

Let's say you set the "altitude correction" by 300 feet higher (50 meters). Whenever you boot up the Vigil, from that point forward it will always boot up with the "altitude correction" in default.

Assuming the unit is set to "Pro" mode, the screen will show
"P + 300 ft" or, if set to meters "P + 100 m". This will show up in the LCD every time it is booted up until the user changes the "altitude correction" to something else.

This only changes the activation altitude not the standby altitude.

When the Vigil senses that it has climbed in altitude to 150 feet, it goes into "airborne mode" and stays in airborne mode until it descends back to 150 feet at which time it goes back into stand by mode.

This is the crux of the question though... when it descends to 150 feet, is it expecting the landing zone to be a different height to the takeoff zone due to the altitude correction parameter?? If it is set to expect the ground to be 300ft higher at landing, will the Vigil now disarm at 450ft (300ft + 150ft) above the height of the takeoff area? It is my understanding that the primary use of the Vigil's altitude correction parameter is to compensate for a discrepancy between the altitude at which you are planning to take off and land.

See the first attachment for a rough diagram I drew to try and explain this. In the diagram, imagine that you have programmed a +300ft altitude correction into the Vigil. You can see that if the landing zone were in fact 300ft higher, then the Vigil would fire at a minimum of 840ft above the landing zone, which equates to 1,140ft above the original takeoff altitude. All fine so far. However, you will also note that the Vigil would be programmed to disarm at 150ft above the landing zone. This equates to disarming at 450ft (300ft + 150ft) above the original takeoff altitude. My question is: if you program a +300ft altitude correction into the Vigil when the takeoff and landing altitudes are the same, will the Vigil now disarm at 450ft above the ground since it is expecting the ground to be higher on landing?

Or in other words: if you were to change this parameter but are taking off and landing at the same altitude, does this affect the window within which the Vigil will operate?

See the second attachment for an example of how the Cypres handles changes made to the activation altitude. You can see that it increases the size of the activation window itself, it doesn't simply shift the window up and down (which is what the offset parameter on the Cypres does). I'm trying to work out whether the Vigil increases the size of the window (as seen in the diagram) or whether it shifts the fixed size window up and down. My suspicion is that because the parameter on the Vigil is designed to compensate for differences in altitude between takeoff and landing, it will operate in the same way as the offset parameter on the Cypres. That is, if takeoff and landing are the same height, but you change the Vigil's activation altitude, it will also affect the height at which the unit disarms.

Quote

The 150 feet never changes regardless of any other setup changes.

150 feet relative to what? Takeoff or landing? Remember that in my question the takeoff and landing altitude are the same, but from what I understand, the Vigil's altitude correction parameter is designed to tell the unit that they are different.

Hopefully I've managed to make myself clear... I feel like it's a complex question, and I'm struggling to put the concept into words.

This is as simple as I can make it.

Your assumptions are wrong.

The Vigil uses the location you turn on the unit as "Ground Zero". Once it goes up to 150 feet above "Ground Zero" it enters "Airborne Mode".

It does not know where you are going to land. If you make an "Altitude Correction" you are changing the firing altitude and only the firing altitude. You are not changing some window that Cypres may or may not use.

Try not to lump the two products together. They are different. The 150 feet "Airborne Altitude" never changes. Nothing you can do to the unit will change the 150 feet "Airborne Altitude" which also means that the disarm altitude can not be changed either because it is the same as "Airborne Altitude" - 150 feet.

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

It appears you are making this more difficult than need be.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[mcstain 0]

Quote

This is as simple as I can make it.

Your assumptions are wrong.

The Vigil uses the location you turn on the unit as "Ground Zero". Once it goes up to 150 feet above "Ground Zero" it enters "Airborne Mode".

It does not know where you are going to land. If you make an "Altitude Correction" you are changing the firing altitude and only the firing altitude. You are not changing some window that Cypres may or may not use.

Try not to lump the two products together. They are different. The 150 feet "Airborne Altitude" never changes. Nothing you can do to the unit will change the 150 feet "Airborne Altitude" which also means that the disarm altitude can not be changed either because it is the same as "Airborne Altitude" - 150 feet.

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

Ok, thanks for the clarification, this is exactly what I was after. When I saw the diagram showing the Cypres window, I wanted to know whether the Vigil operated within a similar kind of window. I understand that the two products are different, but I'm trying to understand the ways in which they differ.

Quote

It appears you are making this more difficult than need be.

I disagree, just trying to understand my gear. The recent fatality in Otay appears to be related to a failure to understand the parameters under which the AAD will operate correctly. I'm trying to avoid the same thing happening to me. Thanks for your input, I appreciate you taking the time to understand my question properly.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

In my opinion, that would be a really bad decision by those that designed the Vigil.

It means that for some scenarios the unit will not be able to activate when it ought to be able to do so.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Skydivesg 6]

sundevil777

Quote

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

In my opinion, that would be a really bad decision by those that designed the Vigil.

It means that for some scenarios the unit will not be able to activate when it ought to be able to do so.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mind expanding on that?

To what scenarios are you referring?


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[sundevil777 93]

sundevil777

Quote

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

In my opinion, that would be a really bad decision by those that designed the Vigil.

It means that for some scenarios the unit will not be able to activate when it ought to be able to do so.

If the landing zone is below the takeoff altitude, then the unit cannot fire at some altitudes where a save is still possible. There might be some other scenarios that could also have bad, unintended consequences.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Skydivesg 6]

sundevil777

***

Quote

The only thing you change is the altitude at which the unit fires.

In my opinion, that would be a really bad decision by those that designed the Vigil.

It means that for some scenarios the unit will not be able to activate when it ought to be able to do so.

If the landing zone is below the takeoff altitude, then the unit cannot fire at some altitudes where a save is still possible.
There might be some other scenarios that could also have bad, unintended consequences.

OK - I see your point.

If I were jumping (on a regular basis) at a DZ with a significantly higher take off location than the landing zone I would simply go to the landing zone to turn on my Vigil. If it were only a once in a while situation (since most of my jumps have been without the aid of an AAD) I would simply take my chance that I could handle it.

I believe that scenario is much less likely than an average skydiver taking off and landing at the same elevation, as do most of us, who simply wants to increase the "Activation Altitude" without affecting the 150 feet arm/disarm (aka "Airborne Mode") altitude.



Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.