hard deck

[stayhigh 2]

Everyone on the load opened up around 1000 ft. It doesn't really take all that much altitude to open up if you throw your PC right out the door.

Only thing I remember from this jump was that it took me like an hour to beg everyone at the dz to get on the load.

Since it was weather day there were shit ton of camera next to pond, I was frothing to hit it, only get cut off by someone on sabre 2 190.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[JohnMitchell 14]

stayhigh

I was frothing to hit it, only get cut off by someone on sabre 2 190.

Thanks for yielding to the slow guy and keeping it safe.

[05BlackWRX 0]

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If you don't like "hard deck", what term would you suggest to replace it?

"Oh, fuck!"

+1

Great response!

[BIGUN 1,048]

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I've done emergency exits from as low as 1200' and was able to use my main on all of them. Caution, this was pre AAD days.

My understanding has been - the AAD doesn't arm itself until 1500'

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JohnMitchell 14]

BIGUN

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I've done emergency exits from as low as 1200' and was able to use my main on all of them. Caution, this was pre AAD days.

My understanding has been - the AAD doesn't arm itself until 1500'

I do believe you are correct, so that wouldn't have been a factor on an emergency exit.

I've also exited below 2000' after going up and getting squeezed back down by bad weather. Another time to use caution, or maybe just land with the plane.

[justme12001 0]

Luckily, the few "emergencies" I've had have been at higher altitudes. That being said, the lowest I have intentionally gotten out was between 2000/2200 ft usually on larger canopies for demo's or demo practice, but have done a few that low on my velo. I think the proper term for those are PoP and hops

[billvon 2,380]

>The term"hard deck" has no universal meaning.

Perhaps not, but we use the term as the "must have canopy by" and "never cut away below" and "if you are in freefall at this altitude go straight to your reserve." That is to distinguish it from decision altitude which is "the altitude you must decide to land your main canopy or cut it away." I suppose you could call it "the altitude below which you must never cut away" but "hard deck" is a bit easier to say and remember.

[pchapman 261]

I still figure that too many different things can be called the hard deck. Hard deck for this, hard deck for that. It's like saying, "what's your (altitude) limit?". You can have all sorts of limits for different things. So I'd prefer to use "hard deck" only within the context of a conversation where everyone knows which limit is being discussed.

If someone can come up with better terms than things like the "no-cutaway altitude", great, but until then I'd prefer a longer awkward phrase over a short one that can be misunderstood too easily.

[cgriff 0]

pchapman

I still figure that too many different things can be called the hard deck. Hard deck for this, hard deck for that. It's like saying, "what's your (altitude) limit?". You can have all sorts of limits for different things. So I'd prefer to use "hard deck" only within the context of a conversation where everyone knows which limit is being discussed.

If someone can come up with better terms than things like the "no-cutaway altitude", great, but until then I'd prefer a longer awkward phrase over a short one that can be misunderstood too easily.

That, to me, suggests the opposite. The resolution to the confusion is not to use the term less, but to use it more. Everyone, consistently, using the same term and initially using it with an explanation, until it becomes as embedded as the rest of our terms.

[pchapman 261]

That's fair enough too, even if I personally disagree.

One would have to have skydiving organizations like USPA decree that "hard deck" means one specific thing when used in skydiving.

... So that it doesn't mean the hard deck for breaking off RW, or the hard deck for pulling one's main, or your hard deck for an intentional low jump, or the hard deck for minimum bailout altitude to main, or hard deck for minimum bailout to reserve (other than for non-landable aircraft situations), or the hard deck for normal malfunction procedures, ........ etc.

[jacketsdb23 45]

sammielu

Regarding emergency exits or going straight to reserve:

If I know my altitude is above 3000' I will use my main.
If I don't know, (ie I don't know my specific location over the ground and might be over a hill) or if I'm below 3000' I would go straight to reserve.

Keep in mind that everyone is going to have a different altitude for going straight to a reserve based on A) Experience and B) What canopy they have for a main.

I got in a pinch this weekend (a wee bit low, thats another story) and pitched my main below 2000' with a Velo 79 loaded at 2.7. As soon at I pitched, I thought...man maybe the reserve was a better option...which as murphy would have it, my velo came out with 3 line twists. Before it even fully inflated and started to spin it was gone and a reserve open about 1200'.

For me, I don't know that opening a highly loaded canopy is a fun option below 2000'. And if you do, you better be on your A game with altitude awareness.

Have fun, be safe.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[gunsmokex 1]

tred

listening to the jump twenty six podcast they mentioned that if you have passed your hard deck with a mal that you should pull your reserve with out cutting away. my understanding was more along the lines of your hard deck being the decision to either cut away or ride the main down. I am sure there is not a black and white answer and it depends on the mal and I will bring it up to my instructor this weekend but was just curious to any opinions on that subject

Ok I'm new but after discussing with my ST&A about what I would do if found myself below '1000 with an unusable main above me.... I would just simply go right for my RSL lanyard directly http://skydiveschool.org/pu-eq-RSL#/container/ However I would ONLY do that in a last ditch effort to save my ass below '1000. In your scenario I would cut away and pull the reserve.

We also discussed another option below '1000 is to just leave the reserve handle in place and pull the cable itself directly. Not quite sure what I think about that yet, but I guess if the handle is stuck its an option. I just don't know how much more time it'd gain you pulling on the cable as opposed to the handle.

And as someone was discussing earlier about going for the reserve directly it you are past your deployment altitude, I guess I don't like that idea and would at least go for my main 1st, I guess I'd like to save my reserve in case I truly need it. I figure why bypass a perfectly good usable canopy and go for the reserve? What the hell would you do if your reserve malfunctioned?

Anyways my two cents. I'm open to criticism so if my thinking is wrong please let me know.

[sammielu 3]

Reserves deploy (and inflate) much faster than main canopies and are more docile. Mains can snivel or have a slow opening that takes 1000 ft. If I'm low I'm not taking that chance, especially if starting at 1000 ft.

I don't know what you mean by going for the RSL or pulling the reserve cable directly (not the handle) - make sure you know what that means and have practiced it until you're sure can do it. Muscle memory for emergency procedures is very important.

[gunsmokex 1]

sammielu

Reserves deploy (and inflate) much faster than main canopies and are more docile. Mains can snivel or have a slow opening that takes 1000 ft. If I'm low I'm not taking that chance, especially if starting at 1000 ft.

I don't know what you mean by going for the RSL or pulling the reserve cable directly (not the handle) - make sure you know what that means and have practiced it until you're sure can do it. Muscle memory for emergency procedures is very important.

Most definitely below '1000 I'd be pulling my reserve, no question about that! At '2000-'3000 though I probably wouldn't go straight for the reserve.

The RSL lanyard that I am talking about would be the little brass ring and shackle with the red webbing attached to it. The reserve cable would just be the free floating cable on the reserve handle.

However I've changed my mind after reading this article "RSL, Skyhook or Faith?" by Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld. http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/content.php?r=361-RSL-Skyhook-or-Faith&language=af

I'll just cut away and let my RSL do its job. Watching the videos definitely convinced me...I'm definitely going to look for a rig with a skyhook or at the very least an RSL.

[sammielu 3]

2000 - 3500 ft is a range for choosing whether to emergency exit on main or reserve, the specific altitude for you will depend on: your dz (hills nearby? good spots to land out of necessary?), your main (docile, high performance where you have to fly that opening, slow opener that will burn altitude), and your experience level (minimum deployment altitudes are there for a reason). Think through the worst case scenarios, talk with instructors, and have a plan. For me, in an emergency, I want more time under canopy to get my body safely to the ground. I jump a big reserve and use it if needed.

SIM 5-1 Partial Malfunction
3. At some point during descent under a partial malfunction, it becomes too low for a safe cut away and you must deploy the reserve without cutting away.
In first jump courses, this is 1000ft, and that works for me as well. (FJC reference SIM 4, Cat A, H. 9)

Please clarify for yourself the plan you came up with when talking to your S&TA. Pulling the RSL buckle unhooks the RSL and does not deploy anything. Pulling the reserve handle does. I don't know why you would skip the big, easy to grab reserve handle and go for the tiny metal cable itself when you're wizzing through 1000 ft so you should rethink that too (or maybe this isnt making sense because were typing, either way, you are freaking me out). But, I don't need to understand your procedures, you do, so talk them through, think them through, and practice until you can do it without thinking.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

sammielu

...I don't know what you mean by going for the RSL or pulling the reserve cable directly (not the handle) - make sure you know what that means and have practiced it until you're sure can do it. Muscle memory for emergency procedures is very important.

It's possible (speculation on my part) that he has a "SOS" reserve. Some student gear still has that. Only one handle to both cut away and deploy the reserve.
In that case, the only way to deploy the reserve without chopping is to unhook the RSL shackle and use the RSL to pull the reserve (bad) or to get hold of the reserve cable (either above or below the handle) and use that bare cable to pull the reserve (also bad).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

Sounds like a huge waste of time and altitude.
If I was still in freefall below 1,000 feet, I would simply pull the reserve ripcord handle.
Below 2,000 feet, simply toss my main pilot-chute.

[sammielu 3]

My dz does have SOS gear. What I was taught matches the SIM; deploying a reserve without cutting away is not considered an option. I get that you 'could' pull on the reserve cable itself, but this seems like a nightmare solution to a problem that should be avoided.

The idea to pull the RSL lanyard to deploy the reserve blew my mind and I was trying to clear that up...The link given to skydiveschool.org has two handle gear and standard EPs.

I'm hoping this is a miscommunication by internet and that jumper gets his EPs straight, or that it was one of those conversations that come up when students ask too many questions and want the hypothetical solution to a problem that is best avoided in the first place. I would leave them with this: pull on time and address malfunctions immediately and don't get in that 1k position where your options suck.

[Divalent 89]

gunsmokex

... I'll just cut away and let my RSL do its job. ...

I think you need to sit down with an instructor and review your EPs. (And preferably an instructor who doesn't suggest that deploying your reserved by pulling on the reserve cable or the RSL lanyard is a viable option.)

[gunsmokex 1]

Sorry guys I forgot to add a few things to my post don't mean to worry you all. Yes the '1000 scenario is hypothetical, say if you find yourself below '1000 and another jumper tags your chute making it inoperable/collapsing it or a thermal/dust devil comes along and collaspses your chute. I get that you'd probably have one chance and one chance only to pull. In that case I'd go straight for my reserve. Sorry to talk about the RSL lanyard but basically we were just in a discussion on what exactly it is and its purpose. So yes it was nothing more than a hypothetical scenario. From what I understand pulling the RSL lanyard would cut away and deploy the reserve at the same time, its a moot point now (FYI as someone mentioned---yes one can simply disconnect it obviously that wasn't what I intended, pulling on it would cut your 3 rings and if your main were out it'd pull out your reserve)

As for the comment "letting my RSL do it job" of course my next step after cutting away would be to pull my reserve. From my understanding most RSL's beat pulling the reserve to the punch anyways but yes I'd still go through the motions and pull the reserve as well. I didn't say it but that was what I meant. At '1000 though I wouldn't be cutting away.

These forums blow for discussion though as crap gets taken out of context stuff, sorry its a lot different than face to face. What it boils down to is I guess I'm just a person that likes to know how shit works especially if my life depends on it.

[Divalent 89]

gunsmokex

... From what I understand pulling the RSL lanyard would cut away and deploy the reserve at the same time ...

I think you need to sit down with a competent instructor and/or rigger to learn exactly how all the parts of your gear work. And to understand how that relates to EPs. (Preferably before you do another jump.)

[craddock 0]

jacketsdb23

***Regarding emergency exits or going straight to reserve:

If I know my altitude is above 3000' I will use my main.
If I don't know, (ie I don't know my specific location over the ground and might be over a hill) or if I'm below 3000' I would go straight to reserve.

Keep in mind that everyone is going to have a different altitude for going straight to a reserve based on A) Experience and B) What canopy they have for a main.

I got in a pinch this weekend (a wee bit low, thats another story) and pitched my main below 2000' with a Velo 79 loaded at 2.7. As soon at I pitched, I thought...man maybe the reserve was a better option...which as murphy would have it, my velo came out with 3 line twists. Before it even fully inflated and started to spin it was gone and a reserve open about 1200'.

For me, I don't know that opening a highly loaded canopy is a fun option below 2000'. And if you do, you better be on your A game with altitude awareness.

Have fun, be safe.

I agree with this and had a sub 500 reserve on a 72 when I opened below 2k due to a chain and had a brake fire spinning lines all the way to my neck in seconds. Due to massive harness shift and inability to find my reserve handle at first(used both hands to cutaway as I had no riser inserts and they were spun up hard) was under reserve below 500. And yes I foolishly took a second to get belly down again)

But back to Sammielu... I you need to be in your comfort zone but your numbers need to be evaluated. Where I learned at a Cessna DZ we would chunk a 4 way from 3k (back when MCO was 2k) on low cloud ceiling days. Probably even turn a quick point or two on the hill. I remember sometime in my first year we had a 2k ceiling(give or take

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[gunsmokex 1]

Divalent

***... From what I understand pulling the RSL lanyard would cut away and deploy the reserve at the same time ...

I think you need to sit down with a competent instructor and/or rigger to learn exactly how all the parts of your gear work. And to understand how that relates to EPs. (Preferably before you do another jump.)

Missed that part in my edit..ugh I friggin hate the internet and message boards. The RSL cuts away the 3 rings there by pulling out your reserve by using your main. Yes I know what an RSL does thanks for the info I just missed that in my edit. Thanks for taking one part of my post and basically ignoring the rest though.

[sammielu 3]

Break off varies with who I'm jumping with, how big the group is, etc minimum is 4500 and that's 4way groups of experienced and current jumpers who have the skills to leave on time and track fast to gain combined separation minimum of 1k before pull time.

Maybe my dz is more conservative than practical application at other places, but we really try to keep each other safe and thinking safe. Losing 5 seconds of working time because someone wants to break off at 5k isn't that big of a deal, I'd rather just jump again than ever take it low.

[sundevil777 93]

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The RSL cuts away the 3 rings there by pulling out your reserve by using your main. Yes I know what an RSL does

Your statement about RSL function does not assure me that you know what it does.

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Thanks for taking one part of my post and basically ignoring the rest though.

I didn't detect anything in the reply that warranted your response. Having a thicker skin will serve you well. Experienced skydivers looking out for others is a good thing, and I think the advice was given to you in the proper spirit.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am