kelpdiver 2 #76 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuote They don't count every firing as a save. At this point they claim 334 documented saves since 1991. From the airtech website: "To date, as production of CYPRES 1 comes to an end, CYPRES units have saved the lives of more than 1000 skydivers, without a single unit ever refusing to activate when the conditions were met." Marketing acting out on its own? http://www.cypres.cc/Downloads/6_5_Saveslist/Official_saves_list_200602.pdf scroll down to the very last page. Didn't see your quote, but did see a similar one claiming 80 saves a year from 1991 to 2003. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #77 March 28, 2007 Playing highway chicken?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #78 March 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote They don't count every firing as a save. At this point they claim 334 documented saves since 1991. From the airtech website: "To date, as production of CYPRES 1 comes to an end, CYPRES units have saved the lives of more than 1000 skydivers, without a single unit ever refusing to activate when the conditions were met." Marketing acting out on its own? http://www.cypres.cc/Downloads/6_5_Saveslist/Official_saves_list_200602.pdf scroll down to the very last page. Didn't see your quote, but did see a similar one claiming 80 saves a year from 1991 to 2003. Conflicting data for sure huh? Anyway, the data from your link supports my original position. Mostly students, tandems, and low time jumpers. And....Possibly not as common as most people would like to believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyninja 0 #79 March 28, 2007 Thanks one-liner, you can name your own thread next time.Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #80 March 28, 2007 i thinks it is shitty that peole think that they are safer and get SOFT ABOUT IT. Evoryone needs to be on their toes on at all times during skydiving. I do think that, that attitude combined with the extra saftey features can be safer, but can not be "played with."don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #81 March 28, 2007 Sorry, but I have never done an intentional cutaway. On the other hand, I have opened 20 reserves when I really needed them. Six of those reserve deployments were alone, but the rest of them were on tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #82 March 29, 2007 QuoteOf course things can go bad, but as someone said once here: I prefer dying because of my mistake and not because of a gear failure. I prefer not to die at all, and to jump as safely as possible. In the Netherlands, AADs are mandatory for anyone not yet in possession of a C-licence (CRW and such excepted, obviously). Yet we get taught the full EPs, and are told never to rely on RSL or AAD alone. In the air, always finish your EP, even if the RSL has already pulled your reserve. Remember, your main safety backup is yourself, so keep it well maintained and up to date. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aguila 0 #83 March 29, 2007 QuoteI prefer not to die at all, and to jump as safely as possible. My ex-girlfriend said all skydivers want to die. So says one ex-skydiver. She stopped jumping after: 1-breaking some electric wires when landing and leaving a big nearby town and the airport without electricity; 2- being about to hit a big water tank on final approach; 3- her main did not open at all and her reserve open too low because nothing happened after pulling the silver; and another issue I cannot remember. All that with less than 40 jumps. BTW, I have her on the phone right now, trying to convince me not to jump anymore But most of us want to keep us alive and healthy for the next jump QuoteIn the Netherlands, AADs are mandatory for anyone not yet in possession of a C-licence (CRW and such excepted, obviously). We just need a B license here. Our take off altitude is more than 6500 ft higher than the DZ at least once a day because we take the plane with us to the DZs. Quote Remember, your main safety backup is yourself, so keep it well maintained and up to date. Well said! Gonzalo It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #84 April 2, 2007 What analogy do you use for low pull contests? Quote Dating a redhead... Even when all goes well, it's still scary as hell! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #85 April 3, 2007 I've been reading people respond (as above) to recent incidents/fatalities in skydiving that there is an "airbag culture" that makes people more careless with their skydiving because they feel like they have the cushion of improved safety features (AAD, RSL/skyhook, etc). And then continue on to suggest that the sport would be safer without such devices. Thoughts/comments? Having jumped in the good old days (they really were pretty cool) before all these devices came along, I'm strongly in favor of all of them. But I'm also in agreement that too many people in the sport expect an airbag culture to protect them from the consequences of their own actions. Too many jumpers don't even pack their own canopies after passing the A license requirement. they don't even know what condition their gear is in, whether anything's wrong with it, or sometimes even how it works. That's "the packer's job", or "the rigger's job". Well it ain't either. Thirty years ago we had no AADs, the early models were for students only. We didn't have RSLs, though some student gear had an early version (the Stevens System, which clipped onto the ripcord handle of a chest mounted reserve). We didn't have audible altimeters either. Nowadays I jump with all three; a Cypres, a RSL, and a Pro Dytter and I'm glad of all three. Jokingly, I'd add an airbag in the seat of my jumpsuit if I thought it might do some good. All of these devices save people's lives. Notably, just two weeks or so back, an AAD saved the life of Al Kreuger, one of our greatest living skydivers and a piece of our sport's history all by himself. Al is alive because of his AAD after he was injured badly enough that he could not pull any of his handles with either of his arms. A lot more people have been saved by their AADs after simply "fucking up" and not paying attention. People who do that should be - and often are - grounded for their mistake (they are at Perris). But they're ALIVE. Being grounded and humiliated is so much better than being dead. Better for them, better for their families, better for everyone at the dropzone, it even makes life easier for the local coroner's office to not scrape up another skydiver. In the recent canopy collision fatality in Texas, witnesses agree that they were impressed with the way a Skyhook may well have been the deciding factor in saving one of the jumper's life, with an "almost instantaneous" deployment of his reserve at or below 500 ft. That Texas tragedy is also instructive in pointing out that no AADs were fired, probably because the entanglement wasn't falling fast enough set them off ( I am assuming one or both jumpers had AADs, which is not an unreasonable assumption these days). The point being that AADs have their limitations, in particular their apparent inability to respond to low cutaway situations. When I jump with all these marvelous devices, I never even think about them being there, aside from including them in my gear check before gearing up. And then I forget they're there. Because I am responsible for my actions. I need to keep an eye on the size of the landscape, I need to be aware of how long I've been gone from the plane, or how long and far I've been tracking since breakoff. Either or both of my altimeters can fail. If I have to cutaway, I also have to pull silver, even if it's likely to be an "empty pull" with my reserve already inflating over my head. If I ever need my Cypres, I can only hope I will be knocked out, because 750 ft is a horrifying altitude to be getting ground rush at and something I hope I never get to see. But these are all "one more thing between us and the ground". I'd carry a magician's rope to climb up and disappear if somebody ever sells one. They're all TOOLS, and welcome ones. But only the jumper has a brain to use them. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #85 April 3, 2007 I've been reading people respond (as above) to recent incidents/fatalities in skydiving that there is an "airbag culture" that makes people more careless with their skydiving because they feel like they have the cushion of improved safety features (AAD, RSL/skyhook, etc). And then continue on to suggest that the sport would be safer without such devices. Thoughts/comments? Having jumped in the good old days (they really were pretty cool) before all these devices came along, I'm strongly in favor of all of them. But I'm also in agreement that too many people in the sport expect an airbag culture to protect them from the consequences of their own actions. Too many jumpers don't even pack their own canopies after passing the A license requirement. they don't even know what condition their gear is in, whether anything's wrong with it, or sometimes even how it works. That's "the packer's job", or "the rigger's job". Well it ain't either. Thirty years ago we had no AADs, the early models were for students only. We didn't have RSLs, though some student gear had an early version (the Stevens System, which clipped onto the ripcord handle of a chest mounted reserve). We didn't have audible altimeters either. Nowadays I jump with all three; a Cypres, a RSL, and a Pro Dytter and I'm glad of all three. Jokingly, I'd add an airbag in the seat of my jumpsuit if I thought it might do some good. All of these devices save people's lives. Notably, just two weeks or so back, an AAD saved the life of Al Kreuger, one of our greatest living skydivers and a piece of our sport's history all by himself. Al is alive because of his AAD after he was injured badly enough that he could not pull any of his handles with either of his arms. A lot more people have been saved by their AADs after simply "fucking up" and not paying attention. People who do that should be - and often are - grounded for their mistake (they are at Perris). But they're ALIVE. Being grounded and humiliated is so much better than being dead. Better for them, better for their families, better for everyone at the dropzone, it even makes life easier for the local coroner's office to not scrape up another skydiver. In the recent canopy collision fatality in Texas, witnesses agree that they were impressed with the way a Skyhook may well have been the deciding factor in saving one of the jumper's life, with an "almost instantaneous" deployment of his reserve at or below 500 ft. That Texas tragedy is also instructive in pointing out that no AADs were fired, probably because the entanglement wasn't falling fast enough set them off ( I am assuming one or both jumpers had AADs, which is not an unreasonable assumption these days). The point being that AADs have their limitations, in particular their apparent inability to respond to low cutaway situations. When I jump with all these marvelous devices, I never even think about them being there, aside from including them in my gear check before gearing up. And then I forget they're there. Because I am responsible for my actions. I need to keep an eye on the size of the landscape, I need to be aware of how long I've been gone from the plane, or how long and far I've been tracking since breakoff. Either or both of my altimeters can fail. If I have to cutaway, I also have to pull silver, even if it's likely to be an "empty pull" with my reserve already inflating over my head. If I ever need my Cypres, I can only hope I will be knocked out, because 750 ft is a horrifying altitude to be getting ground rush at and something I hope I never get to see. But these are all "one more thing between us and the ground". I'd carry a magician's rope to climb up and disappear if somebody ever sells one. They're all TOOLS, and welcome ones. But only the jumper has a brain to use them. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #86 April 4, 2007 You know, personally, I don't feel THAT much safer with an AAD... I mean, I don't feel as if I am going to land just as safe as I would after a perfect jump. The way I see it, if an AAD has a reason to activate, I'm going to be directly over some dangerous obstacles with no time to find a clear spot and land in it and will probably come out of the entire ordeal with a couple of broken bones after a hard landing. Then again, I feel that it's more likely that I wont even be concious when an AAD activates, in which case I'm pretty screwed. I might live through it, but the injuries are going to suck. Point is, no AAD is going to make me feel much safer. I'd rather have one sure, but it doesn't make me feel immortal.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #87 April 7, 2007 Personally I think AAD's are great but i when i get my B im gna switch it off for solo jumps to avoid device dependancy. I never think i have one on me - i always pretend its not there and its worked a gem. Subconsciousely i check my alti while turning in a formation and feel confident that, should an emergency arise, i coudl handle it cos i rely on myself, not a computer. And it does take away the fun a bit - skydiving is a challenge to test yourself against the odds and surviving - with a bloody AAD tht challenge is gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #88 April 7, 2007 Quote And it does take away the fun a bit - skydiving is a challenge to test yourself against the odds and surviving - with a bloody AAD tht challenge is gone. I certainly don't skydive as a challenge to see if I can survive "against the odds". But I daresay it's that kind of thought process that might have been part of the reason certain safety features are now required. by the way do I infer correctly from your post that where you jump you have to have an AAD until you are off A license (as you say you will switch it off "when you get your B"?)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #89 April 7, 2007 yep done the 50 jumps requirment but need to do lectures and spotting and stuff so am still A licence. in UK its mandatory for A licence and studetns although i daresay that will change. What you quoted i meant in terms of the thrill - i skydive to have fun adn to be as safe as possible - i personally would love to try without an AAD for the simple reason of that extra buzz - i wouldn't do anytiing stupid obviousely and havent done anything stupid so far (although it is early days). but I certainly would feel more nervous without one which would add to the experience and be beneficial rather than detrimental. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #90 April 7, 2007 Quote I never think i have one on me - i always pretend its not there and its worked a gem. If you think like that... QuotePersonally I think AAD's are great but i when i get my B im gna switch it off for solo jumps to avoid device dependancy.Quote Don't do that, you don't need to, you got the point. ***And it does take away the fun a bit - skydiving is a challenge to test yourself against the odds and surviving - with a bloody AAD tht challenge is gone. Now you're scary.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mike111 0 #91 April 7, 2007 =lol everything i sya comes out wrong and i get flamed - im getting used to it by now scary? lol yer right. I remember a jump once when i had switched it on and it had been checked but for some reason i thought it must have gone off for silly reason. Felt far more responsible and a bit more on edge so kept me on my toes - "yes you shoudl always be on your toes" ertc etc. lol if noone can relate to that - well to sum up . im responsible never done anything stupuid got out of sticky situations nto caused by me and follow all regulations. therefore im always up for lsitening to advice so lets try and avoid the accusations of either being nuts or irresponsible. Thanks!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyninja 0 #92 April 7, 2007 I don't think anybody cares if you are nuts and/or irresponsible or not, so long as you keep a good distance from everybody else if that should be the case... Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mike111 0 #93 April 7, 2007 lol nicely put - il bear that in mind edited to add - more of an adrenalin kick . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #94 April 8, 2007 ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grue 1 #95 April 15, 2007 Extra safety is nice, but having it forced on us sucks. This country REQUIRES people to have an AAD until 200 jumps, and it's really annoying.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azdiver 0 #96 April 18, 2007 make it safer in one way and people will find a new way to die, human nature.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #97 April 18, 2007 Quotemake it safer in one way and people will find a new way to die, human nature. Well then...It seems my life's work has been for nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyninja 0 #98 April 18, 2007 That's a depressing way to look at it - but accurate if you think that everybody can be "helped". I'd like to think that you've succeeded in helping to keep safer those who want to be safer. Arguments of unnecessary "reinventing the wheel" be damned.Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azdiver 0 #99 April 19, 2007 no your life's work hasn't been for nothing. just saying that with every new development theres a new problem to deal with, constantly pushing the envelope of what can be done and what one wants to be possible.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Mike111 0 #91 April 7, 2007 =lol everything i sya comes out wrong and i get flamed - im getting used to it by now scary? lol yer right. I remember a jump once when i had switched it on and it had been checked but for some reason i thought it must have gone off for silly reason. Felt far more responsible and a bit more on edge so kept me on my toes - "yes you shoudl always be on your toes" ertc etc. lol if noone can relate to that - well to sum up . im responsible never done anything stupuid got out of sticky situations nto caused by me and follow all regulations. therefore im always up for lsitening to advice so lets try and avoid the accusations of either being nuts or irresponsible. Thanks!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyninja 0 #92 April 7, 2007 I don't think anybody cares if you are nuts and/or irresponsible or not, so long as you keep a good distance from everybody else if that should be the case... Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #93 April 7, 2007 lol nicely put - il bear that in mind edited to add - more of an adrenalin kick . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #94 April 8, 2007 ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #95 April 15, 2007 Extra safety is nice, but having it forced on us sucks. This country REQUIRES people to have an AAD until 200 jumps, and it's really annoying.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #96 April 18, 2007 make it safer in one way and people will find a new way to die, human nature.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #97 April 18, 2007 Quotemake it safer in one way and people will find a new way to die, human nature. Well then...It seems my life's work has been for nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyninja 0 #98 April 18, 2007 That's a depressing way to look at it - but accurate if you think that everybody can be "helped". I'd like to think that you've succeeded in helping to keep safer those who want to be safer. Arguments of unnecessary "reinventing the wheel" be damned.Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #99 April 19, 2007 no your life's work hasn't been for nothing. just saying that with every new development theres a new problem to deal with, constantly pushing the envelope of what can be done and what one wants to be possible.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
