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elleof8ed

PD Storm Wing Loading

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Hey guys,

Newb jumper here. I'm just starting to think about my first gear purchase, and I'm leaning toward a 7-cell main. I've been reading a lot about the Spectre and the Storm, and it seems that PD recommends a notably higher load on the Storm than the Spectre.

For example, looking at a 170 sq foot canopy in both models, PD lists the maximum exit weight (for a novice) as 153 on the Spectre and 170 on the Storm.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me? My initial reasoning was that a Spectre 170 would be a good first canopy for me. It would be a pretty light load (my exit weight is around 150) and I could easily downsize later to a 150 9-cell without needing a new container. Then I heard about the storm and thought that sounded like a good option, but would I be too light to fly the Storm 170?

(Of course, I'll try several canopy models before I settle on one, but I'm trying to do my homework while I'm still renting student gear.)

Thanks!!

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The wing loading charts don't recommend wing loadings. They list what PD considers to be the highest acceptable wing loading. It's always okay to be more conservative than the highest recommended wing loading.
Owned by Remi #?

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Thanks guys!

Labrys, you're right. "Recommend" wasn't the right word choice on my part. I just noticed the difference on the maximum load charts for the two canopies and wondered if that meant the storm needed to be loaded heavier for performance. Thanks again!

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I don't know your jump numbers as you have not listed them.

I can tell you from my own experience that the Storm is a very forgiving canopy and can be pretty responsive when it is asked to. I have heard that it is very similar to the Spectre when flown gently but has the option of being sportier.

I really love my Storm and am flying a 170. My exit weight was about 200 lbs. I started jumping it around jump #30. I had downsized with help from coaches and instructors to a 190 9 cell before moving to this. The flare power that the Storm has is amazing! It was much easier to land than many of the student canopies. Having said that, I have taken a canopy course and once I learned that I had 8 inputs instead of 4 the landings became much quicker for me.

Ive thought a little about downsizing to a 150 Storm just because of how easy it has been to fly. ON THE OTHER HAND, Ive read far too many people getting hurt by rushing. I have a lot I can still learn on this one before I downsize.

If you live in the USA I would suggest demo'ing a 170 from PD and see what you think. at 150 lbs, a 150 may work but talk to your coaches/instructors before you listen to posters about your safety.

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Quote

Ive thought a little about downsizing to a 150 Storm just because of how easy it has been to fly. ON THE OTHER HAND, Ive read far too many people getting hurt by rushing. I have a lot I can still learn on this one before I downsize.



Keep thinking that way. There's a very loose rule of thumb about maximum wing loading that I like a lot. Starting at about 1 is a good idea. Don't add any more than .1 per 100 jumps. For example, don't go to 1.1 until you have 100 jumps. 1.2 at 200, etc. And keep in mind that those are maximums and that there are many other things to also consider including your overall ability to pilot the canopy you're currently on.
Owned by Remi #?

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I am curious why you want a seven cell? I have about 400 jumps on Spectres and about a hundred on a CF Storm loaded at 1.3. Neither of these canopies are particularly easy to land, compared to many 9 cells. The Storm has a tendency to pop up. There are a few discussions on the landing characteristics of the Storm in the CREW forum. Unless you are doing CREW, why get one? (They are fun to fly, however, and many people have no trouble landing them.) They have a very steep angle of attack which some people just can't get used to when landing.
As a first canopy you can't go wrong with a Pilot, IMHO.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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If you're popping back up the problem is with you, not with the canopy. Perhaps you're flaring to agressively.

To the OP:
The storm is an excellent allround canopy for intermediate jumpers or conservative jumpers like myself.
I've been using a regular Freefall Storm 190 at 1.1 for over 300 jumps now and like someone else has said, it is relatively forgiving yet responsive and packs an awesome flare. I'm confident that I can land this canopy in all conditions I feel comfortable jumping in, nor do I have problems getting back from the occasional long spot.

As to the "why would you want one"-argument, the same could be said for virtually any other canopy on the market.
"Why bother with a Sabre2 if you have no interest in eventually getting into the path that leads to the Holy Grail of swooping?"
The only answer is to look around and see what canopies are available to you. For instance, in the Netherlands you wouldn't be allowed to jump a Storm until you had 100 jumps, while a Spectre becomes available at 25 jumps.
I've also got some 30 jumps on a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.1 and have found it a great canopy. Nice and soft openings and, despite what some people are saying, the Spectre too has great flare power. In fact, I'd almost bought the Spectre when I got to demo the then newly developed Storm.

With the modern canopies out there, the old 7 vs 9 cell arguments become more and more obsolete. It just takes time to get to know a canopy. Do some hop and pops and spend some time doing canopy comtrol.
Do the same excersices with each canopy and you'll come up with one that will suit you.
You could have someone video and debrief your landings, or perhaps take (another) canopy course.
And remember, you do not need to find your 'soulmate' in a canopy yet. Just one that will keep you happy for the next couple of hundred of jumps.

Short answer, talk to your instructors and demo as many different canopies as you can / are allowed. :)
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Seriously? 100 jumps before you can jump a Storm? I got my 170 (Loaded at 1) at Jump 29, and have never looked back. I LOVE my Storm! B|

I'm still working on low-wind landings (I have a tendency to flare too hard or not enough on low-wind days), but otherwise I totally agree with everything you said.

To the OP -- when I was looking at canopies, I had been flying a Spectre 190, ready to go to 170. This Storm came up, so I asked my rigger what he thought of the Storm. He described it as a Spectre on a mild dose of steroids. :D:D While you're going on with your training, ask a lot of questions about they canopies you are flying and how your instructors & rigger would compare other models to those. Your instructors & coaches see how you fly. They'll be able to give you great guidance.

Incidentally, I do not fly CRW, and do not intend to downsize for AT LEAST another 150 or so jumps.
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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See "Landing the CF Storm" in the CREW forum.

To the OP: The Storm can be a challenging canopy to land. Demo one and fly it under several wind conditions. At a low wing loading you will probably be alright, but why restrict yourself to to a seven cell canopy? Try a Pilot, Sabre 2, or a Saffire 2--you might like one of them much better.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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Hey

I also absolutely love my storm. Soft but not too snivelly openings, flies straight and stable even under a few line twists( from my first few wingsuit jumps :) ), fun to fly when I want it too be up high and and easy to land at the critical bit. awesome in deep brakes, and the flare power is something else. I flared a little late once and the flare power and controllability definitely prevented any injury.

I've not flown a lot of different canopies but can say it' a great all a great all round canopy . I have thoroughly enjoyed all 120 something jumps on it. I've not flown a spectre but it was observed by experienced people on the ground that the glide angle is definitely steeper than a spectre loaded at the same wingload ( both at 1.3), so I can therefore accept the recommendation that there is sometimes a stronger jump number limit in some countries compared to the spectre.

I happen to like the steeper glide angle (hope this is the correct term) as I found it a super easy to judge accuracy wise for landing (i don't swoop, just fly a normal pattern) but it sometimes means from a longer spot I have to fly the canopy a bit more (a bit of rear riser input for instance) but it's well within its capabilities.

Everyone who I have met who has a storm really loves it, but I can say without doubt that nobody could possibly love their storm more than I love mine :)
Best way to find out if you would like it is to demo one when PD are in your area (that's how I bought mine) but with the usual proviso of checking with your own instructors first if that is suitable for your ability, as I am unequivocally biased about mine and am just some random dude on the internet.

Blues.

B|

Gib

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Baksteen

*shakes head*

I'm sure you know best. :S



Yep it's a common misstake.
The jumper should not have to adjust to the canopy.

The canopy should always perform as I want to, not how my arms act.

Croc, you could cut a few holes in the canopy to counter act the flare problem with the canopy.

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Not to pick on you Croc.

To the op, there3 are 3 different Storm canopy configurations. 1 Is the standard "freefall" version. #2 is the "hybrid" version, and the third is the "CRW" canopy. The most common is the "freefall" version which has different (mildly) characteristics than the other two.

Going to the CRW forum and reading the landing the Storm article may not do the freefall version justice. Taking a canopy course and learning how canopies react to various inputs etc is amazing and every new canopy pilot (under 200 jumps) should take one. The most effective method I have been able to employ is the 2 stage flare. I have popped up on landings a couple times and with the Storm this is very easy to do, due to the incredible flare power it posses'. However after 2 or 3 times doing it you should be able to learn how to handle it, and utilize it to your advantage. Try not flaring so hard and the problem will be solves. The other great option is a 2 stage flare.

*Question/Note(s) to Croc.

Did you buy your canopy used? Reason I ask is that the Storm is know for having really long brake lines from the factory. Many people are concerned about this and freak out and have the brake lines shortened. This could cause the canopy to be overly responsive to landing flare. Both myself and the main packer at my dz were surprised at the amount of brakes that were there. It turns out that this is part of the design to not only tame, but to harness the flare power of the Storm. Just a thought. Check the lines on your canopy and see if they have the right amount of brakes or just the correct lines to begin with.

Hope this helps

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No, I bought my Storm new. I demoed a 170 and had no problems at all landing it even in no wind. I am a landing challenged jumper (see my sig line), so I was much encouraged by that. To match the wing loading on my CRW team I got a 150. The "window" for flaring this canopy was much less. I never mastered it. One member of our team had 3000 jumps, and he couldn't land his well either.

CRW team broke up. Bought Pilot 150. Problem solved.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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Hi Croc

You obu obviously have a lot more jumps/experience than me but I find your comments interesting. I have to say I have found my storm to be a super easy canopy to land, and agree with the other comments about being forgiving and responsive at the same time, a combination I like very much. Personal tastes vary of course /what car person A dríves might be considered a piece of shit by person B) but you are the first person I have heard say that the standard freefal l(i.e. none CRW/Hybrid ) storm is tricky to land, but obviously your opinion as valid as everybody else's.


Hi Keithor

Regarding the long brake lines from the factory, I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand,I imagine that the canopy manufacturers would play it a little safe and not send out canopies with brake lines lengths that could result in an easy stall, especially in the intermediate class. On the other hand, I my guess is that a lot of people who are complaining that their brake lines are too short are maybe not finishing their flare i.e their hands are more level with their belly button as opposed to the hips upon landing if that makes sense. Granted, every canopy has a different sweet spot, but I do remember in my last canopy course watching in slow motion not only mine but everybody elses landings, and it was often the case that the people who tended to arrive rather than land had their hands relativity high - slow motion video and a great explanation from canopy coach really helped here. So on that point I would guess it prudent to have an experienced canopy coach evaluate the landings before adjusting brake line length.

I don't really know how much of brake line length perception is effected by body type, particularly arm length. I have reasonably long arms and can not only get my canopy to pop up towards the end of the flare stroke if needed ( or the " OH shit a little late, give me Turbo Flare please now KITT) but can also get the canopy to stall if I stretch my arms as low as possible and hold. For me this translates as wide range of control, one that I am very happy with. If my arms were to be say, I don't know, 30% shorter, then I imagine I would lose some of that range, and would maybe need to consult with someone who knows their stuff about adjusting the brake lines. These are just my musings, please feel free to correct me (anyone) if I'm talking out my arse (has been known to happen). :)
Hope winter ends soon, I am bored of not jumping now.

Blues to all.

Gib

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I've had students who were better skydivers in some respects than me, right out of the box. Athletic abilities are not distributed evenly, in jumping or any other sport. I know several people who love their Storms and can land them on a dime. A friend of mine who had well over a thousand jumps at the time was so convinced that her new Storm 170 was trimmed wrong that she sent it back to the factory. PD sent it back and said it was fine.

Personally, I need a truly forgiving canopy. A man must know his limits. Also, I believe that all the configurations of the Storm are trimmed the same. Mine was a CF Storm.

I think, especially in the smaller sizes, the Storm is too advanced for most jumpers just off AFF, IMHO. Glad you like yours--it really is a great canopy.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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Croc

I believe that all the configurations of the Storm are trimmed the same.

They are not, but they are similar.

Anecdotally, I've seen numerous reports/questions on "how to land a CF Storm" and numerous reports/comments on "how easy/wonderful it is to land a (freefall) Storm"

Objectively, a CF Storm 150 cascades are 4-3/8, 3, 5-3/4, and 15-3/4 inches. On a freefall Storm 150 they are 3-1/2, 2, 4-3/4, and 14-7/8 inches. Otherewise the trim is pretty similar, at least for a 150. They have separate line trim charts for the CF Storm vs the freefall version, but I'm not going to compare every size.
Brian

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voilsb


Objectively, a CF Storm 150 cascades are 4-3/8, 3, 5-3/4, and 15-3/4 inches. On a freefall Storm 150 they are 3-1/2, 2, 4-3/4, and 14-7/8 inches. Otherewise the trim is pretty similar, at least for a 150. They have separate line trim charts for the CF Storm vs the freefall version, but I'm not going to compare every size.



OK, I see that those are the A4 to UST dimensions for the brake cascades.

For a quick glance at the differences in trim, it is handy to look at the A,B,C, and D line distances:

Distance to A1 (center line), then additional distance to the B, C, and D lines:

Storm-----112.5----3------9.75---19.75
CFStorm---111.75--3.125--10.5----20.5

So this confirms that the CF Storm has slightly shorter lines, but slightly steeper trim.

(One has to be careful on the PD website as the Storm and CF Storm have separate product pages. The CF Storm is not seen as a variant of the regular Storm, although there is "Casual CF kit" for the regular Storm. The document on the Storm and CF Storm flight characteristics mentions the differences between the two canopies in terms of retractable PC, tail pocket, reinforcing etc, but totally fails to mention that there is any difference in line trim!)

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Croc

I am curious why you want a seven cell? I have about 400 jumps on Spectres and about a hundred on a CF Storm loaded at 1.3. Neither of these canopies are particularly easy to land, compared to many 9 cells. The Storm has a tendency to pop up. There are a few discussions on the landing characteristics of the Storm in the CREW forum. Unless you are doing CREW, why get one? (They are fun to fly, however, and many people have no trouble landing them.) They have a very steep angle of attack which some people just can't get used to when landing.
As a first canopy you can't go wrong with a Pilot, IMHO.



I've never jumped a CF version so can't address that...but the standard Storm is in no way a difficult canopy to land.

I would describe both the Spectre and Storm as fairly easy canopies to land. Both open well (Spectre with more "snivel") and are great overall canopies. The Storm would be a great choice for a first canopy or anyone interested in low drama openings and landings.

Of course the Pilot seems like a great choice as well...

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It seems I have been misinformed. Maybe I'll demo a regular Storm--I really did like the way mine flew. Thanks for the info.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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pchapman


OK, I see that those are the A4 to UST dimensions for the brake cascades.
...
Distance to A1 (center line), then additional distance to the B, C, and D lines:

Storm-----112.5----3------9.75---19.75
CFStorm---111.75--3.125--10.5----20.5

So this confirms that the CF Storm has slightly shorter lines, but slightly steeper trim.

Thanks for pointing that out. I picked the brake cascades because they were the most different between the two canopies, and the difference in cascades likely makes a difference in the flare.

I also noticed the non-cascaded A lines on the Casual-CF Storm, at least on the 150, look the same as on the actual CF Storm. I was too lazy to compare them in great detail across the board though, because of the 3 different linesets to compare.
Brian

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I guess that the features that make it good for CRW ( quick, on head openings, excellent response to riser inputs, etc. ) might have a somewhat negative effect on the landing flare.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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