Maximum Wind Gust

[AggieDave 6]

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Take a canopy class and they will most likely teach you the same thing

I don't recall Scott Miller teaching any such thing.

I don't remember Scott Miller teaching to ignore gusting winds. In fact he taught the opposite. Teaching to ignore gusting winds is not only dangerous, it would be borderline negligent on the part of the instructor.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerpaul 1]

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my personal approach to wind is to ignore it! Don't think about the wind, fly and land the canopy. If the tandems are flying then go with it. It's good to know how to land in all wind types,what are you gonna do if the plane takes off in calm 5mph winds and on the ride up is starts gusting to 20? I like to "feel" what the canopy is doing and try not to think about wind

I disagree with this approach to managing wind conditions 100%. I would discourage anyone from using this approach when makign decision about their personal safety.

Wind speed and conditions are a huge factor in your skydive, and need to be treated as such. This is not an area to be taken lightly, and a cavalier attitude in this area can lead to serious injuries or death.

As much as I hate to do it, looking at the posters profiel reveals a very high WL on both main and reserve with a short time in the sport, and jump numbers well below what Brain Germains WL chart would call for at those loadings. Please take these factors into consideration before taking advice from this person.

On the other hand, if he is magically good enough to be jumping this equipment, then, for himself, his approach might be acceptable.

At Bay Area Skydiving, Byron, CA we are known for our high winds, and also that many people here can jump in the winds we have.

Of course, there are times when even we shut down for the wind.

But, it is not unheard of for tandems to go in 30 mph. The video people on these loads are often the people with the tiniest canopies on the dz. They aren't getting broken, so it is clearly possible to do some of this if everybody is at their top form.

My problem with "justme" is his failure to council that consideration of the capabilities of one's gear should also play a part.

Now, in fairness, he said this was his approach. He didn't actually say others should follow.

But, posting in this forum to someone who has asked a question about how he should handle wind, there is a strong suggestion that justme is suggesting his approach will work for others.

Especially coming from an instructor, I have a problem with that.

For some it might work. But they are probably jumping small highly loaded gear as well.

But for a jumper of lower or moderate experience on gear that is not suitable to do it, this approach is likely extremely dangerous.

This is not a "one size fits all" question. We should not have a "one size fits all" answer.

[NWFlyer 2]

Check out this thread - a bit more information on the topic.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3238127

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mnealtx 0]

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Take a canopy class and they will most likely teach you the same thing

I don't recall Scott Miller teaching any such thing.

I don't remember Scott Miller teaching to ignore gusting winds. In fact he taught the opposite. Teaching to ignore gusting winds is not only dangerous, it would be borderline negligent on the part of the instructor.

Didn't make any sense to me, either.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[justme12001 0]

I guess the flaw in my reasoning is that at my home dz and another that is very close by that I jump at, shut the tandems down around 20 mph. I would never ignore 30 mph winds, and in a month when I start doing tandems, won't jump in them. When I took Scoot Miller's canopy coarse he specifically said to ignore the wind and to fly your canopy to the ground, that you dont change anything about the way you land. I believe it was in the part where he is comparing the wind to a river, and you also ignore(or not pay attention rather) your ground speed, because it scares most people and causes them to flare high.

You do have to take wl and canopy type in to account as well, and I do fly at a moderatly high wl on an elliptical canopy so it is easier to fly through strong winds.

I also take my duties as an instructor very seriously, and would not put a student out in winds over 14 mph. I also try to teach my fellow jumpers once they are no longer students how to land properly with or without wind, downwind and crosswind. I know alot of people never plan on landing down or crosswind, but if it happens, that is when they get hurt because they never learned how

[billvon 2,400]

>what are you gonna do if the plane takes off in calm 5mph winds and on the
>ride up is starts gusting to 20?

Land with the plane if they're bad. Otherwise exit and risk it.

>I like to "feel" what the canopy is doing and try not to think about wind.

You can't feel what a canopy is doing without understanding what the wind is doing. They are both part of the same equation.

[AggieDave 6]

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he specifically said to ignore the wind and to fly your canopy to the ground, that you dont change anything about the way you land. I believe it was in the part where he is comparing the wind to a river, and you also ignore(or not pay attention rather) your ground speed, because it scares most people and causes them to flare high.

He did teach that. He also talked about clean air and turbulence, at least in the courses I took from him. After a 3 or 4 times in his basic course, twice in the advanced course and some one-on-one coaching, I never heard him say to ignore turbulence or wind gusts. He did talk about 1/2 brakes vs full flight, though.

This is, however, looking a lot like a really messed up bible study: "no, no, no, Paul meant XXX when he said YYY."

The thing to remember is that turbulence means that your canopy isn't flying the same as it does in clean air. Non-rigid (as in not made of metal or wood) wings do not respond well to turbulence, regardless if they are highly loaded, X-braced or air locked.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>When I took Scoot Miller's canopy coarse he specifically said to ignore the wind
>and to fly your canopy to the ground, that you dont change anything about the
>way you land.

Ah, here's the confusion.

It's definitely true that the altitude you start your flare at doesn't have much to do with the wind. However, how you fly your pattern and how you finish the flare depends a great deal on wind.

>I believe it was in the part where he is comparing the wind to a river . . .

A good comparison. A sailor on a river just sees the boat going straight ahead and leaving a straight wake behind him. But if he wants to cross the river he _cannot_ just aim at a point on the other shore; he must correct for the current, and be very cognizant of it when he docks the boat at the other side.

[airtwardo 6]

I rarely watch the wind meter, I have a genuine 'old timers' rule of thumb for deciding if it's too windy...quite accurate, be the winds steady OR gusting.

Put 1/2 a pack of cigarettes on the picnic table, if it blows off...open the beer!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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When I took Scoot Miller's canopy coarse he specifically said to ignore the wind and to fly your canopy to the ground, that you dont change anything about the way you land.

Scott may have said those exact words, but they were in the context of a lesson, and were in reference to days when you have already made a determination that the wind conditions were safe for jumping.

I know for sure that this was not his response to a question about making a jump/no jump decision in gusting winds.

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I also take my duties as an instructor very seriously, and would not put a student out in winds over 14 mph.

If this is true, you need to remember that you wear the label of 'instructor' for all to see. It's not just your students, but every student on the DZ, and every fun jumper on the DZ sees you as a rated professional. Your words and opinions will carry weight with these people, and for this reason you need to be very careful with what you say and how you say it.

Your original post just wasn't right. Even if your thoughts were harmless, the way it came across sent the wrong message about the subject of wind gusts and personal limits in terms of safety.

[matthewcline 0]

AH YES, the Marlboro Wind Meter .5!

MY rule of thumb, when the old guys sit down, get the truck warmed up to go get the "young, dumb and full of..." ones.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[azureriders 0]

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my personal approach to wind is to ignore it! Don't think about the wind, fly and land the canopy. If the tandems are flying then go with it. It's good to know how to land in all wind types,what are you gonna do if the plane takes off in calm 5mph winds and on the ride up is starts gusting to 20? I like to "feel" what the canopy is doing and try not to think about wind. Take a canopy class and they will most likely teach you the same thing

Could you please tell us what canopy class you have taken that teaches this. I have taken several (some better than others) and have never heard such things in one yet.

Please enlighten us.

[dresherr 0]

+1

Pretty much... ignore the winds all together? Pshh. I would be kicked off my DZ for telling ANYONE that.

IMO Tandems occasionally jump in higher winds than any fun jumper should jump.

Why don't many touch on the subject of wing loading and canopy type (air-lock vs. not) Usually the camera jumpers that do jump with these tandems are loaded up more than a low-time jumper and have the experience to maybe put the luck a little more on their side. I don't believe any fun-jumper should pay attention to those getting paid to jump in higher winds.

Anywho... who am I?

[AggieDave 6]

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Why don't many touch on the subject of wing loading and canopy type (air-lock vs. not)

I mentioned that briefly. Here's the deal, sure if you're loaded higher, you can travel through the turbulence faster, but you're still effected by the turbulence. The downside is that when your canopy collapses you have less fabric over your head and you're traveling faster when you impact the ground.

I jump loaded over 2.6:1. That's a little above what would be the average in skydiving. Turbulence still effects me and I typically stand down well before the "experienced" guys with 200 jumps.

Airlocked canopies won't breath as much in turbulence, but they WILL collapse just the same. Owning an airlocked canopy is not an excuse to jump in bad conditions.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nomal2day 0]

Today it is 24 gusting 33, and nobody is jumping.

That way we will definitely ALL be around to have a beer later.

'To fly is heaven, to freefall is divine'

'You only need 2 tools. WD40 for when it doesn't move but should, and duct tape for when it moves but shouldn't'

[Renegate 0]

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The thing to remember is that turbulence means that your canopy isn't flying the same as it does in clean air. Non-rigid (as in not made of metal or wood) wings do not respond well to turbulence, regardless if they are highly loaded, X-braced or air locked.

No wing responds well to turbulence. The wing is flying because the non-turbulent (or laminant) air flow over the top of the wing creates an area of low air pressure as opposed to the bottom surface, that in turn generates lift. Turbulent air doesnt flow in the same way, and doesnt produce the same low pressure conditions; your wing hits a turbulent air stream and it will loose its lift characteristics. Ever hit turbulence in the airplane? Felt the sinking sensation and brief moments of free fall? Your plane just literally fell from underneath you by loosing lift due to turbulence. Of course the airplane pilots have the luxury of changing other operating conditions such as your air speed to counter the effects of turbulence.
The same can happen to any wing.
We all experience turbulence to some extent when flying - when we stall the canopy right before landing or in the air as practice.
Cant imagine how any canopy pilot can consciously ignore the turbulence.

- It's okay to be happy to see me. Just because you're English doesn't mean you need to hide your emotions.
- I'm Irish. We let people know how we feel. Now fuck off.

[pilotdave 0]

I think you're kind of mixing up turbulent boundary layers with turbulence. First of all, turbulent boundary layers (turbulent air flowing over the wing) work just fine. Most of the airflow over a wing is turbulent anyway. Laminar flow airfoils are designed to keep a laminar flow over a longer portion of the chord, but that doesn't apply at all to canopies.

Turbulence can be thought of as variations in angle of attack. In a plane, you'll feel drops, bumps, rolls, etc. as the lift keeps changing, often asymmetrically between the wings. Generally for planes, a higher wingloading lessens the effects of turbulence.

A canopy is not rigid though. It'll not only get bounced around like a plane (which is uncomfortable but usually not dangerous), a canopy can be deformed due to a sudden change in angle of attack. Since we're suspended below our canopies by non-rigid lines, the matter is even worse. More highly loaded canopies might not be affected by turbulence quite as much... but when they are, they hit the ground harder.

Dave

[Renegate 0]

You are right, its a sort of terminology misuse that I myself dislike. The point however carries across either way.
By the way I am not sure what Re is for a typical ram air canopy but I dont see why a canopy would not have a fully (or mostly) laminar flow.

- It's okay to be happy to see me. Just because you're English doesn't mean you need to hide your emotions.
- I'm Irish. We let people know how we feel. Now fuck off.

[kallend 1,623]

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You are right, its a sort of terminology misuse that I myself dislike. The point however carries across either way.
By the way I am not sure what Re is for a typical ram air canopy but I dont see why a canopy would not have a fully (or mostly) laminar flow.

I seriously doubt if ANY of the airflow over a canopy is laminar, because the airflow will be tripped by the nose and the seams.

Laminar flow airfoils are very hard to design, only maintain laminar flow over a small range of AoA, and the airflow can even be messed up by things like raindrops or bugs.

Read this.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[poe62 0]

My limit is 25 IF it's steady. I learned early on not to jump in gusty conditions. A gust popped me back up right when I was putting my feet on the ground and I ended up landing hard on my back. That's the better scenario than if the wind dropped from a big gust close to the ground. Like Glideangle, I watch who is not jumping and like to follow their lead.

~Nikki
http://www.facebook.com/poe62

Irgity Dirgity

[SkyPainter 0]

Yep.....early in my AFF progression we were on a wind hold for a couple of hours. Then, there seemed to be change, and some of the jumpers were quickly gearing-up for a load. Manifest knew I had been sitting around waiting (eager newb), and aksed if I wanted a slot on that load.

I noticed the S&TA that I just had a FJC with two weeks earlier taking HIS rig off! That was it for me! If he is not going up, neither am I!

Was a good call, based on the landings I watched!

Live deliberately; Dare greatly; Land gently
SkyPainter
SOS 1304, POPS 10695, DS 118

[mr_music11 0]

Thanks for all the posts in this thread with reference to not feeling bad for grouding your self/knowing your limits. I have beat my self up in the past for grounding myself for various reasons. This has resulted in a lower number of jumps than I had originally anticipated and desire. However, even after 3 years and the limited number of jumps that I have, the sky still calls me on a daily basis. This thread reminds me to continue to live the dream of flight. Enjoy even those days that I am not skydiving, the sky will still be there when I AM ready. blue skies

If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

[mnskydiver688 0]

I think it has to also do with your frame of reference. If you have rarely had to deal with winds higher than 10-15mph then taking on 20-25 would not be a good idea. My first 350 or so jumps were in North Dakota. Jumping there you became very comfortable landing in winds of all kinds. I am comfortable jumping in ~25mph. That is my personal choice and by no means is right everyone at my experience level. I am having to learn how to work with no wind landings however. When it comes to gusts I don't like when it gets over 5mph from the sustained wind speed. Another thing to consider is change in wind direction. When winds are changing direction you have to consider changes in turbulence caused by different obstacles and such. As it has been said countless times here and everywhere else, "Rather be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground."

Malcolm

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[timbarrett 0]

if i remember my aero-dynamics properly doesn't the force of the wind increase with the square of the speed....so the decision about gusts over a certain maximum you are comfortable with is not a linear one..the spread for the gust limit above your comfort level should narrow as absolute speed rises...
or am i wrong?

"Work hard, play hard and don't whinge"

[popsjumper 2]

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I think a lot depends on the type of canopy, wing loading, the experience of the jumper and his/her judgement. If you lack the experience and good judgement, follow a mentor. For me, the trees tell me when the wind is unsafe. Learn to listen to the trees if there are any on your DZ.

And therein lies your answer (post# 18 from Videofly).
Variables, variables, variables.
As you can see from the other replies in here, it's a personal decision based on all those, and other, variables.

There is no set number that you can use unless you want to arbitrarily set a low number and stick with it.

IMHO,
I strongly recommend that you use a very slow approach to developing YOUR limits. Jump slightly higher winds/gusts until you find yourself getting anxious about it and then back off a little for a safety margin.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239