Is 20+ years too old for a reserve parachute?

[PixieUK 0]

I've seen a rig for sale on ebay and have contacted the seller - he seems genuine, though I wouldn't buy without seeing the gear and getting it checked by a rigger. The rig is cheap because it's old - is that likely to be a problem?
On request he sent me the certificates for the reserve which indicate it was first packed in 1990, DOM 1988. Does the fabric degrade with time?

The text from the ad:

Here's my Talon 170 for sale, awsome rig would make an amazing first rig and cheap.
Main is a flight international concept, Mavrick 170 reserve is 210. This rig fits me very snug and im 5'7 it will defo fit between that and 5'4 probably even smaller. This rig has only been used for demos and is a 7 cell. The lines are ammaculat and canopy for it's age is still very very good no rips or tears. This has been very well maintained. Its and old rig 1982 but main is 1995 last jumped 1998 it has an RSL. Reserve would need re-pack. Has no cypress. It is not FF freindly but I'm sure a rigger will be able to advise you. Any questions please ask away. Open to sensible offers.
Can post with Currier

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[stayhigh 2]

Would not pay anymore than 400 dollars. and that's a lot

who would pay 400??

he should just donate to some poor kid skydiver if it is airworthy…

I sold my infinity plus reserve for a 1000, and both were made after 2005.

There is always someone going out of sport.

Buying 20+ year old gear to jump it just sounds ridiculous.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Southern_Man 0]

I would personally run away from that rig. I would recommend not buying a rig on Ebay at all.

To answer your question specifically about reserves, though--the fabric does not degrade with time if it has been well cared for and stored correctly. However it does degrade with handling (packing). It is a huge difference if the rig has been in continuous service and packed 50+ times or if it has been sitting stored in a cool, dry, dark closet for years.

Some countries set life-limits on gear. Some riggers will not pack old gear (20 years is a common standard). Some might be willing to pack it is it has porosity testing (this is a requirement for PD canopies after 40 pack jobs or 25 deployments, just for comparisons sake). Check with your local rigger for guidance.

Some reserves will be old models which may be outdated and not as good or appropriate as a newer model (even if a seasoned hand at your DZ might continue to jump one). A 1982 rig is very likely an outdated model.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[pchapman 261]

So the rig is an '82, main '95, reserve '88. Reserve model not clear. As for the main, it might be another in the Flight Concepts line, like the Maverick, but I thought the Maverick applied only to the 200 model. A nice canopy, for something F-111.

There's a lot more here at issue than the reserve age.

Yes nylon degrades over time, but only very very slowly. That's more to do with strength, while porosity (affecting openings and landings) is affected more by a lot of repacking. Opinions vary about old reserves. Often the feeling against old reserves was because of old technology and design strength, not specifically because of age. So someone might not want to jump a Swift reserve (a fairly early model square reserve), even if it were new, but not be particularly uncomfortable with a 20 year old PD reserve, a strong and solidly built design with good flare characteristics.

But how long do you go? Do you start getting uncomfortable with a 30 year old reserve? If so, the cost of that 26 year old one should be in line with whatever one thinks it'll be worth 4 years from now.

On the one hand, I don't mind using old skydiving gear. (I jumped my Maverick a dozen times this past year.) On the other hand, like many people, I'm wary of newbies getting really old gear just because it is cheap. It isn't that it is wrong. I've known jumpers, within the last decade, whose first main canopy was F-111. Landings were tougher than for those who had ZP, and they didn't "progress" as fast in learning to fly modern canopies, but maybe that wasn't the point. The canopy served its purpose of letting the jumper get down safely and skydive economically. Still, jumping an F-111 main is an unusual choice for a newbie and not typically recommended.

A rig from the early 80s (unless already upgraded) won't be nearly as good for riser and bridle protection as newer ones, won't be ready to install an AAD in, and so may well need some rigging upgrades (and thus money) to meet typical modern standards.

Others could join this thread and write for pages and pages here when it comes to all the factors in gear selection and weighing different aspects of different rigs and canopies. Especially for really old stuff, where there's so much more variation from what is typical these days.

While I might well be comfortable in using that rig for certain types of skydiving ... the simple answer for you would be to leave it be. If someone bought the rig, I'd expect it to be dirt cheap. The market for it, as a complete rig, really is very close to zero.

Edit: While obviously there are always new people entering the sport who will over time learn more, it is pretty common for the experienced skydiver on this site to be rolling their eyes at yet another newbie saying, "Should I buy this? It's cheap!", when talking about some ancient piece of crap. That's just the way it is.

[PixieUK 0]

Thanks for the input guys - for the record, I didn't find the rig, another skydiver recommended I take a look. Whilst I don't want to waste money buying brand new, I also view this as life-saving equipment, hence wanting other opinions.

I couldn't get hold of our DZ rigger so thought I'd ask on here to see if it was worth taking the conversation with the seller further. I'll pass on this one

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[Blis 1]

Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

[Andy9o8 0]

Blis

Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

[skytribe 16]

My take is that age alone is not a reason for discounting something. PD reserves (not the optima series) have not changed in years have a great safety record and have 40 pack jobs before they need to be recertified. So canopies may have sat in closets for a while and reached nowhere near that limit and I'd no problem in jumping or packing them after a full inspection. The porosity should not have increased if it hasn't seen light of day but only a thorough inspection would reveal that.

That said, containers have moved on and something that old may not be suitable for modern skydiving (freeflying) and may cost more to make necessary mods than buying a more suitable container.

Any main that old is probably worth virtually nothing.

I wouldn't buy anything without a full inspection and ebay doesn't allow that so I would steer clear of gear on ebay.

[xsniper 1]

I sure hope not. My Raven II will be twenty years old next month. But I had a 12 year break in my jumping it.

[Quagmirian 40]

I'm hijacking this thread because I have a similar query and I don't want to post a whole new topic. I'm looking at putting together a similar cheapo rig with something like a Raven 2 and a Fury 220 for a few hundred quid. Apart from what's already been written, what problems am I likely to have with this?

[skytribe 16]

Fury is F111 and anything with a few hundred jumps is likely to be ragged out.

[pchapman 261]

@quagmirian

Medium sized Ravens that aren't overloaded are OK.

I and others have jumped old 7-cell F-111 canopies of 170-220 size in recent years for some old time CRW etc, and they get you down. Landings can take an aggressive flare and can be a bit of a thump -- one may not get the feather light landing people are used to these days, where one planes out perfectly and puts feet down with zero speed. Depends also how baffed the canopy is, but it is rare to find a crisp 25 year old F-111 canopy. Front risering for speed can help. (I prefer low 360 toggle hooks, but that doesn't work in every pattern!) With a bit slower speed and perhaps poorer glide ratio than modern medium sized canopies, it can be perhaps a little harder to get back from poor spots with a turbine aircraft, but nothing worse than anyone with a big canopy has to deal with.

At least with Dacron lined canopies, lines last quite a while and small trim changes not much of an issue. Finding replacement line sets for an old canopy can be tough, but likely not a problem, as by the time the lines need changing, the canopy will be in pretty poor condition anyway.

[stratostar 5]

So how do you feel about flying in airplanes twice you're age?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

In 1988 how many reserves were on the market that were 210? IDK for sure, but I do know one for sure, and I wouldn't jump it.... The x210R. Seen a few of those around, there is on on ebay right now from the loft in lost P.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Blis 1]

Andy9o8

***Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

Not really, no.. Besides all the stuff i've heard old timers at dz talk about when waiting for clear skies or winds to calm down (few weekends that is)...

But then again over here regulations say 10 years for mains and 15 for harness if remember correctly..

[FastRodriguez 0]

Andy9o8

***Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

For fuck sake dude. The guy is just giving a pretty innocent opinion. Enough with the "skygod" attitude. I dont care if you have a gazillion jumps and gigantic ball sack. Chill dude.

"I don´t stop when I am tired. I stop when I am done"

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Whilst I don't want to waste money buying brand new, I also view this as life-saving equipment, hence wanting other opinions

Send a PM to 'likestojump' on this site. He (Paul) sells a ton of used gear, and while he's US based, he does a ton of overseas business. Do a search on his user name, and you'll see multiple threads indicating that he's an honest, reliable seller who sells good gear at good prices. He can find you your best option within your budget.

[Andy9o8 0]

FastRodriguez

******Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

For fuck sake dude. The guy is just giving a pretty innocent opinion. Enough with the "skygod" attitude. I dont care if you have a gazillion jumps and gigantic ball sack. Chill dude.

Having never, ever been anything other than a weekend warrior with an intermediate canopy, I am the last jumper in the world who'd ever have a skygod attitude (when it comes to skydiving, at least). A novice with 9 jumps and no other exposure to the skydiving industry does not yet have a foundation to express an "opinion" to another novice such as he expressed here. I could have been snarky to him, but I'm satisfied I made my point indirectly, and politely. If that's the sort of thing that prompts you to fire away at me from your keyboard, then bite my ass.

[PixieUK 0]

davelepka

Send a PM to 'likestojump' on this site.

Thanks

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[diablopilot 2]

FastRodriguez

******Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

For fuck sake dude. The guy is just giving a pretty innocent opinion. Enough with the "skygod" attitude. I dont care if you have a gazillion jumps and gigantic ball sack. Chill dude.

It's not an innocent opinion, it's an uninformed one, with little published experience to back it up. When I'm left in that position I open my ears and shut my mouth.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[FastRodriguez 0]

diablopilot

*********Just my opinion but i wouldnt be comfortable jumping a rig that's older than me... I would atleast get something made in 2000's, theyre not that expensive anymore...

I see from your profile you have 9 jumps (as of this writing). Do you have more knowledge about skydiving, or parachutes, or the skydiving industry, than the average novice with 9 jumps?

For fuck sake dude. The guy is just giving a pretty innocent opinion. Enough with the "skygod" attitude. I dont care if you have a gazillion jumps and gigantic ball sack. Chill dude.

It's not an innocent opinion, it's an uninformed one, with little published experience to back it up. When I'm left in that position I open my ears and shut my mouth.

How is it not an innocent opinion? He is not telling anyone to do anything stupid. He is saying he wouldnt buy gear older than he is. You dont need to have a million jumps to prefer new gear over older one, or to form an opinion. Some people may have not as many jumps as you guys do but, hey, we can read & learn.

"I don´t stop when I am tired. I stop when I am done"

[stratostar 5]

And round two goes to Andy9o8....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

"... At least with Dacron lined canopies, lines last quite a while and small trim changes not much of an issue. Finding replacement line sets for an old canopy can be tough, but likely not a problem, as by the time the lines need changing, the canopy will be in pretty poor condition anyway."

......................................................................................

Agreed, Dacron lines wear out at about the same rate as F-111 fabric, so that - by 700 jumps - they are both due for retirement.

[riggerrob 558]

"... The text from the ad:

Here's my Talon 170 for sale ..."

.................................................................................

Start by getting the seller to clarify who made the harness/container.
When was it made?
Which model of harness/container?
How big is the container?
Harness measurements are best done with a Master Rigger.

[riggerrob 558]

Maximum 20 years is the simple answer.
The details are far more complex.

First, there was a bad batch of mesh woven during the mid-1980s, that grounded most round reserves.

Secondly, before 1990, few manufacturers knew how to design main canopies for wing-loadings greater than 1 pound per square foot, and nobody knew how to design reserves that would land softly at wing-loadings exceeding one pound per square foot. IOW older parachutes need different flying techniques than modern parachutes.

Thirdly, 20 years of steady jumping in the California desert will wear out any parachute.

Fourthly, it is difficult to find manuals for parachutes sewn more than 20 years ago ... er before the internet was opened to the masses ... It is even more difficult to find Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, etc. without looking in the dusty archives of grumpy old, grey-bearded Master Riggers.

Fifthly, many manufacturers have said not to use their products after "X" number of years, to limit their liabilities. IOW they can no longer predict how they will fly without a factory inspection.