Is 20+ years too old for a reserve parachute?

[FastRodriguez 0]

stratostar

And round two goes to Andy9o8....

Thats mature

"I don´t stop when I am tired. I stop when I am done"

[katzas 0]

Yes. I have a letter from the manufacturer of the Raven line of reserves that says he (president and master rigger) would not sign a packing card on a reserve that is more than 15 years old. Consider that if you have to use a reserve it's your last chance. What's that worth to you?

[tristansdad 0]

Let someone inspect it before buying. Just keep in mind, the gear on your back when leaving the plane is the only thing in the world between you an the almighty.

[ronny2 0]

Recently "Firebird" announce a bulletin that say there harness-container systems have till now a maximum life-time of 15 years, and can now be extended to 20 year maximum.
This is not for there Tandem systems and Reserves.
This means that there "RUSH" reserve lifetime is maximum 15 years!

Bulletin in attachment

[pchapman 261]

Re: Firebird
Maybe they are getting their ideas from the paragliding industry which they are also part of. In North America there are no specific rules on paragliding gear lifetimes, but in Europe there sometimes are, depending on the country, such as a life of 15 years for an emergency parachute. There tend to be more rules about mandatory checks of the paraglider itself too, every few years at a dealer, again depending on the country.

While it has become popular to look down on 20 year old reserves, a large part of that had probably been because it used to be that 20 year old reserves were often antiquated designs (e.g., rounds, overloaded Ravens, reserves without spanwise reinforcement). Now that we are getting 20 year old PD reserves, I wonder if attitudes will change...

(Although I'm not sure what kind of results we'll see when more go in for a porosity test after their 40 boxes are full.)

[Di0 1]

Andy9o8

Having never, ever been anything other than a weekend warrior with an intermediate canopy, I am the last jumper in the world who'd ever have a skygod attitude (when it comes to skydiving, at least). A novice with 9 jumps and no other exposure to the skydiving industry does not yet have a foundation to express an "opinion" to another novice such as he expressed here. I could have been snarky to him, but I'm satisfied I made my point indirectly, and politely. If that's the sort of thing that prompts you to fire away at me from your keyboard, then bite my ass.

The funny thing is that the novice with 9jumps expressed a quite similar opinion to those of riggers with thousands of jumps in this thread. Jumping very old gear can make people "uncomfortable", if you're a newbie even more so.

Take for example me, since I have been in the sports for only a year, I don't know all the service-bulletins, recalls, problems and modifications that have been made in the last 20 years. Some, I've heard of. Some I certainly haven't.
Which is a good enough reason for me to not buy "ancient" gear and stick to newer designs.
I also wouldn't feel comfortable jumping gear that is older than me (I'm 30 though so that's hardly up for debate ).
Mainly because, being an engineer, I know that this type of gear is a result of a long trial-and-error process and, honestly, if I can, I'd like to take advantage of past people's errors when it comes to it.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Rick 67]

pchapman

Re: Firebird
Maybe they are getting their ideas from the paragliding industry which they are also part of. In North America there are no specific rules on paragliding gear lifetimes, but in Europe there sometimes are, depending on the country, such as a life of 15 years for an emergency parachute. There tend to be more rules about mandatory checks of the paraglider itself too, every few years at a dealer, again depending on the country.

While it has become popular to look down on 20 year old reserves, a large part of that had probably been because it used to be that 20 year old reserves were often antiquated designs (e.g., rounds, overloaded Ravens, reserves without spanwise reinforcement). Now that we are getting 20 year old PD reserves, I wonder if attitudes will change...

(Although I'm not sure what kind of results we'll see when more go in for a porosity test after their 40 boxes are full.)

just got my 176 back from PD (DOM 8/93). Approved for another 5 repacks

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[megamalfunction 1]

Jumpers have a bad habit of trying to dump their old gear off on newbies. If you buy used gear make sure you speak with YOUR rigger to make sure you aren't getting ripped off. I jump a '02 Dolphin container, '02 Tempo Reserve, and a '96 Triathlon main that I bought used from a jumper at my home DZ. The reserve was fine, but I had to spend $1000 to upgrade my container to modern standards (tuck tabs, larger bridle protector etc.) & I had to spend another $300-$500 replacing the line-set and having some other work done on the main. The AAD was not included +$1100-$1300, and I needed new risers because the risers included with the rig did not have a ring to connect an RSL.

The bottom line? My $1650 used rig, ended up costing around $4000. Was this a bad deal? Maybe? To purchase an IDENTICAL rig brand new from chutingstar.com would have cost me $6000. So buying new gear in my case would have cost 50% more had I bought the same equipment new. However, had I bought new gear, the equipment would would be 8 years younger (bought my rig in 2010).

From my experience, I'd say you will probably need at least $3000 to buy a used rig equipped with an AAD. Most likely, you'll end up spending closer to $4000. For $6000+ you could buy a brand new rig. Just make sure you speak with YOUR rigger before you buy anything!

P.S. In 2022, when my rig is 20 years old, I pledge not to try and dump my old ragged out used gear on some poor unsuspecting A License newbie!

[CornishChris 5]

I may be able to shed some light on the original rig for sale. Talon is a brand made by Parachutes Australia. My first Talon had a Maverick 200 as a main. It was an F111 7 cell. It was pretty horrible, very heavy (and shit) flare. I also think it is Australian so it sounds like the whole rig is well traveled. I didn't know they used it as a reserve however.

On another note I just bought a new PD160 to replace my old PD160 reserve that was DOM 1991. I got a call from my rigger and another guy on the DZ had offered me £200 ($300) for the reserve which I snapped up!! My rigger recommended sending it back to PD at 25 years old for a health check. I used it once and it flew very nicely!!

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[riggerrob 558]

***I may be able to shed some light on the original rig for sale. Talon is a brand made by Parachutes Australia. My first Talon ...

......................................................................................

To add to your knowledge ... Talons are designed and built in the USA. Rigging Innovations opened their first factory in Perris Valley, California during the mid-1980s. By the end of the century, they had moved to Eloy, Arizona. Rigging Innovations licensed Parachutes Australia to build Talons. I have packed Talons from all three factories. I even worked in the California factory during the mid-1990s.

[piisfish 135]

katzas

Yes. I have a letter from the manufacturer of the Raven line of reserves that says he (president and master rigger) would not sign a packing card on a reserve that is more than 15 years old. Consider that if you have to use a reserve it's your last chance. What's that worth to you?

could you scan and post this letter please ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[NWFlyer 2]

katzas

Consider that if you have to use a reserve it's your last chance. What's that worth to you?

It's worth the cost of an inspection by a trusted rigger, which varies by rigger & market but usually goes in the $50-75 range (including a repack). That inspection will give me the information I need to know whether the reserve in question (be it 2 years or 20 years old) is safe to jump.

This is the second (at least) thread where you've tried to argue that newer is always better than used. You can say it as many times as you want, but it won't make it true.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[likestojump 3]

For the record I own, and jump regularly :

1999 Javelin (primary rig, 1500+ jumps, put a brand new harness, including a reserve risers on a few years ago)
1992 Javelin (used for jump large canopies) with a 1992 RavenIII reserve
1995 Dolphin (used for jump large canopies) with a 1989 RavenIII reserve

I am betting that this gear is in better condition than many peoples 500+ jump mud covered and abraded super-duper awesome and pimped out gear with their name embroidered on the mudflaps.

[pchapman 261]

It is funny how much more casually we treat mains than reserves.

Sure, reserves are our last shot, and we want them to have extra strength for some high speed, unstable deployment, so there is a difference. No doubt about that.

But one could jump a 22 year old 1992 Sabre 1 all day and not be worried about it blowing up, even if it opens hard. (The exception would be if it were filthy and sun-faded.) Or the same with some 1980s F-111 canopy. At times in recent years I've had a 1988 Maverick 200 in my backup rig as the main and used it regularly. That canopy was certified both as a reserve and main. As long as the top skin isn't getting faded, or worn from kneeling on it, I have no worry about it blowing apart on opening.

[likestojump 3]

pchapman

It is funny how much more casually we treat mains than reserves.

Sure, reserves are our last shot, and we want them to have extra strength for some high speed, unstable deployment, so there is a difference. No doubt about that.

But one could jump a 22 year old 1992 Sabre 1 all day and not be worried about it blowing up, even if it opens hard. (The exception would be if it were filthy and sun-faded.) Or the same with some 1980s F-111 canopy. At times in recent years I've had a 1988 Maverick 200 in my backup rig as the main and used it regularly. That canopy was certified both as a reserve and main. As long as the top skin isn't getting faded, or worn from kneeling on it, I have no worry about it blowing apart on opening.

Excellent point. Every ParaCommander that I have jumped in the past few years had been manufactured from the mid 60's into the mid 1970's - and I have never felt that they will disintegrate on opening.

That said I absolutely do not want a 26 Navy conical or a twill reserve...

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Paul,

Quote

absolutely do not want a 26 Navy conical

The Navy 26 ft conical was/is one of the strongest canopies ever built. It was designed for high speed ejections.

It will stay together when a lot of 'sport' reserves will not.

JerryBaumchen

[RiggerLee 61]

Till the badly finished fabric rots.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerrob 558]

RiggerLee

Till the badly finished fabric rots.

Lee

...........................................................................

Are you referring to the US Navy 26 conicals that were coated with titanium dioxide?

According to Dan Poynter, the titanium dioxide coating was a "delustrant" designed to reduce "shine." Unfortunately, when the titanium dioxide interacted with sunlight, it rotted the nylon canopy fabric.
The last time some-one asked me to repack a US Navy conical it was manufactured during the suspect year, so I refused.

[skez 0]

Im jumping a 1990 vector2 with 1990 microraven 150 reserve.still looks new....also a sabre 150 with the label worn off so dom is anyones guess never had a drama evan tho I cant pack for shit......

FTMC

[katzas 0]

Please point me to where I said a new canopy is always better than a used one. If you are unable to do so then I expect a retraction of your statement.

If you take the time to really read my statement about the 20+ year old reserve question I point out that 1. The president (George Galloway) and master rigger of the Precision Aerodynamics Company stated, in an email letter (by way of an attachment) to me that he would not pack his or any other manufacturer's reserve that was in excess of 20 (my error on the number of years--but the point is still valid since the canopy in question is that old) years old. You and anyone else reading this are welcome to make your own inquiry at ([email protected]).
I did not say anything about whether or not the canopy in question was airworthy or not. It may be--it may not be. Personally, I would not purchase it or use it. 2. Nowhere in that reply did I say that a new reserve was "better" than a used one. I did point out that a reserve by definition is your last chance and asked the somewhat rhetorical question of what that is worth.

For the record--and perhaps your enlightenment, I have in the past purchased and jumped used equipment--including a reserve that saved my ass twice--but--that reserve wasn't 20 years old.

As to my previous posting about new vs used gear--I never said in any of my postings anything about what is "better". My purpose in raising that issue was to illustrate that the initial cost of all new gear, while high, was, in many cases, worth it when compared with renting used DZ gear given that the resale of new gear seems to be quite good. I did say that rental gear, by necessity, is not custom made to your body and the comparison most skydivers make to using one-size fits-none gear to a rig that is tailored to you is very positive. If that isn't "better"--well, I guess I don't know what is.

[NWFlyer 2]

katzas

Please point me to where I said a new canopy is always better than a used one. If you are unable to do so then I expect a retraction of your statement.

Fair enough, you didn't directly say it. I'll retract my statement.

However, your rhetorical style is, I believe, strongly biased towards new(er) equipment, without a lot to back it up other than "I like new better." No one's trying to talk you (or anyone else) out of buying new gear. As you and others mentioned, there's some great tangible and intangible benefits. If you can afford it, go for it. But people (me included) are trying to provide a fair representation of all sides of the argument.

Frankly, though, I'm starting to feel like I should just STFU when jumpers march around and proclaim loudly to anyone who will listen that all new gear is the way to go, because that just means there'll be more great stuff on the used market in a couple of years when they move onto something else or life changes and they no longer jump (because, statistically speaking, most will, that's just kind of the way it is in this sport).

I'm mildly intrigued by this message from Precision, though not interested enough to do my own research as I sold my Precision reserve a few years back. TBH a blanket "I won't pack anything over 15 years old" coming from a manufacturer of reserves could be interpreted as an opportunistic attempt to get older used gear off the market in hopes of moving more new gear. Another major manufacturer of reserves requires that reserves be sent to the factory for inspection after a certain number of pack jobs or jumps. That, to me, is a more credible policy from a manufacturer than a blanket "I won't pack old reserves" statement.

Quote

I did point out that a reserve by definition is your last chance and asked the somewhat rhetorical question of what that is worth.

And my answer remains the same. Take emotion out of it. We don't know anything about the hypothetical 20 year old reserve; is it a closet queen that had one pack job before its owner quit jumping? Or was it used in a student program where there was an average of a chop a month? Or somewhere in between those two extremes (the most likely scenario)? Again, it's worth the cost of an inspection by a trusted rigger to let me know what condition the actual 20 year old reserve is in.

I bought a 20 year old reserve a couple of years ago; the only reason that I sold it was that it turned out to be too tight of a fit in my container. Had it fit better I'd have happily kept it and jumped it without worry if I'd needed to. That's because I trust my rigger.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[katzas 0]

Retraction accepted.

At the risk of beating this horse to death I think I pointed out and "backed up" many advantages to buying new. Now, I do realize that cost and value are relative terms--the difference in cost of a new rig vs a used one may be substantial and not in the budget of many--but--that difference may be less substantial to those who make the call that the prices they (and I) see here in the classified section just don't justify buying someone else's used gear. It's analagous to the new vs used car market when it comes to a precious few brands. Toyota Camry holds it's value so well that, in many cases, the trivial discount a buyer of a used one gets isn't worth it as opposed to buying a new one. My point is---again---buy new and, in a couple of years when you're ready to sell it, you're likely to lose between $1000 to $1500 on the resale. Buy used and you may or may not lose a lesser amount--but--rent for two years and you lose all of it. For the record, and I believe I stated this in my initial post--if you can buy something safe and that fits your body and your style in the used market--by all means do it. But--for those like me who need a larger HC and canopy, it ain't easy to find and almost impossible to find at a price that makes sense. To me, if you are serious about continuing in skydiving, renting gear past a dozen or so jumps is just pissing money away.

As to your comment about promoting the sale of new gear by declaring really old reserves unpackable--well--I prefer to trust rather than suspect especially when my rather ample ass depends on it. Perhaps one day we can have this discussion over a beer--I'll buy (new, not used).

[riggerrob 558]

Today I packed a 20-year-old Bogy reserve into a 20-year-old Infinity container.

I reminded the owner not to load the reserve more than 1 pound per square foot.
Then I advised him to invest in a newer Infinity. Part of the problem was brass grommets pulling loose. One of those grommets was in the main container loop anchor ( a problem suffered by a variety of other containers ... see all the Service Bulletins issued at the turn of the century). There was also a loose grommet inside the reserve container.
The other problem was that previous owner slid across an asphalt taxiway. He scuffed the reserve pin cover and abraded the one riser cover. Sorry, but I do not have the patterns to replace those flaps and I suspect that the Infinity factory would charge him more than the rig is worth to replace those two flaps.
Bottom line, he is considering buying a new rig and reserve.

[katzas 0]

I sent the relevant information to you in PM.

[theplummeter 14]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Paul,

Quote

absolutely do not want a 26 Navy conical

The Navy 26 ft conical was/is one of the strongest canopies ever built. It was designed for high speed ejections.

It will stay together when a lot of 'sport' reserves will not.

JerryBaumchen

That's good to know, I think that might be the reserve in the PEP rig at our dropzone!