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BobxMarley

Longevity of first rig?

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Hey DZ. I'm just about to get my A license and I've started looking a gear seriously. I am okay with buying new, but I'm trying to plan for a rig that I can have for a long time. I noticed that Vector makes a V349 that will cover main sizes 190|170|150 if I fly PD Pulses. Which would put me at a 1:1 wing loading on the 190 and a 1:3 wing loading on the 150. I'm in no hurry to downsize or swoop, but I do want a rig that will allow me to progress. The only problem with Vector is of course the 9 month production time. [:/]

I haven't seen many other containers that state they can handle a 190|170|150 combination. I'd image they probably exist? The only other solution would to be fly rig that allows for a 190|170 and sell it when I'm ready to downsize.

Based upon my thoughts above, can you offer any recommendations or advice on buying my first rig? Also, since I'm not in a hurry to downsize, do you think a 1:1-1:3 range would last me for a long time?
Klaasic

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BobxMarley

Hey DZ. I'm just about to get my A license and I've started looking a gear seriously. I am okay with buying new, but I'm trying to plan for a rig that I can have for a long time. I noticed that Vector makes a V349 that will cover main sizes 190|170|150 if I fly PD Pulses. Which would put me at a 1:1 wing loading on the 190 and a 1:3 wing loading on the 150. I'm in no hurry to downsize or swoop, but I do want a rig that will allow me to progress. The only problem with Vector is of course the 9 month production time. [:/]

I haven't seen many other containers that state they can handle a 190|170|150 combination. I'd image they probably exist? The only other solution would to be fly rig that allows for a 190|170 and sell it when I'm ready to downsize.

Based upon my thoughts above, can you offer any recommendations or advice on buying my first rig? Also, since I'm not in a hurry to downsize, do you think a 1:1-1:3 range would last me for a long time?



I'm in the same boat as you and pretty much all containers are made in a size that will fit a Pulse 190, Sabre 2 170 and Sabre 2 150 (and some of the bulkier 140 canopies). Keep in mind a Pulse 190 has a smaller pack volume than a Sabre2 170. Look around a little harder. Off the top of my head Wings, Javelin, RI Curv, Aerodyne and Infinity have offerings on the market.

I've been told by people at my DZ to buy the first container used because you likely grow out of it in one active season or less, but I'm 6'5" and can't find jack in terms of used containers so for me it's starting to seem like more and more of a force majeour situation...

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Your first rig is most likely going to get beaten up... your still new and learning (which is 100% groovy) and will slide, find mud, land off, etc. So buying a new rig isn't what I advise folks for their first 100-300 jumps. Kinda like giving a 16 year old a new car instead of a beater. HOWEVER, if that doesn't appeal to you... there are good cheap alternatives to new rigs. Look into Racer Shadow 2k3 and Rigging Innovations Genera rigs. They are a good way to get new for cheap.
Woot Woot!

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lyosha


I've been told by people at my DZ to buy the first container used because you likely grow out of it in one active season or less, but I'm 6'5" and can't find jack in terms of used containers so for me it's starting to seem like more and more of a force majeour situation...



You're the one exception - size outliers (very tall, very short, very heavy, very light, etc.) will have trouble finding containers on the used market. But you can get everything else used.

Some people don't ever downsize, so the longevity of that first purchase can be as long as the gear lasts. I bought a nearly-new 2003 Wings container (had 10 jumps on it) in early 2005 when I got my A and jumped it for 7 years before I bought a new container. I can't say that I thought I'd jump it for quite that long when I bought it, but it's turned out to be a heck of a value! The Wings is now my backup rig and it's still in good shape (of course it helps that it was practically new when I got it). I have the same size/model main and reserve in both rigs.

There's other reasons beyond downsizing to buy used if you can. Newer jumpers often beat up their gear; better starting with something that's used than brand new. Also, you've just laid out a ton of cash to get your license, and will lay out a ton of cash for other gear like a helmet, jumpsuit, altimeter, etc. Why not spend a little less on the first set of gear and spend it on some skydives? Let someone else take the depreciation of driving that "new car" off the lot. Let someone else break that slippery shiny new main in.:D:D

Of the 8 components in my two rigs, I only bought three of them new (one of my mains, one of my reserves, and one container). For the canopies, the only reason I bought them new is that when I bought they were very scarce on the used market (still are - the Optimum and Pulse are new enough models that there just aren't many out there). I love my Infinity that was custom built for me, and there's a lot to be said about the comfort of a container that was built for your body. But I am also glad that I waited to buy it until I knew that I'd jump that container for years and years and years.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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BobxMarley

I haven't seen many other containers that state they can handle a 190|170|150 combination.

My old Mirage G3 handled those sizes just fine. Bought it used, went through several mains, and sold it for basically what I paid for it... A new G4 in an M4 size would fit the bill quite well if you decide to go with the Pulse.

Remember that a Pulse packs up very small, more than one size smaller, than a typical 9 cell full ZP main. I really doubt by the time you get down to a 150 at 1.3 you will still find it particularly fun though. It's really a beginner's/casual jumper's canopy although it would be great for a wingsuit rig too IMO.

For reference, in my M5 sized Mirage G3 I went through the following: Safire1 189 (175 using PD measuring method), Nitron 170, Jedei 150 (airlocked, packs big), Nitro 150 (Gelvenor fabric, packs big), and Nitron 150 with some other demo stuff mixed in.

Age of canopy, climate, fabric type, design, etc all affect pack volume so plan accordingly. When in doubt, ask a rigger or local canopy guru. ;)
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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You could get a Mirage G4 M3. I bought a Mirage G4 M2 as my first rig. My first canopy is a PD Storm 170 seven cell, (packs roughly the same as a Sabre 2 150.) So I can downsize to a Sabre 2 135. With the M3 it is the next size up container so sould fit a Strom 190 and then 170 and 150 nine cell canopies. Storms are pretty cool first canopies too. Worth looking at. Nice soft openings usually on heading and nice flare range. And they are pretty sporty too. Im super happy with mine and will probably downsize to another Storm but 150. Also Mirage is sweet. I couldnt be happier. Had some mates buy used rigs for only $100 less than mine which I dont think are worth tha savings.
Hope this helped. Also I think if you go dacron lines on your last downsize you could even go another size smaller as they tend to increase the packjob a size.

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Hey buddy, I was in a similar situation to you. Being a big guy (with a long torso, to boot), my options were effectively zero for used gear that would fit comfortably. I bought an Infinity and had it built so I could tightly fit a 210 main, now it snugly fits a 190, and some day when I feel like downsizing to a 170 that won't be a problem either.

If you do want to get three canopy sizes out of your container and the manufacturer indicates it's ok, I STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY recommend buying a fairly well-used canopy for the biggest one. Several dz.com members can attest to what the packing was like on my 210 since it only had a couple dozen jumps on it when I bought it, and getting it into the bag was hellish at best.
cavete terrae.

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You're forgetting a few key points. First up, fitting the largest canopy that the manufacturer says will fit in a rig makes it a bitch to pack. Likewise, if you pick a rig that will hold a canopy small enough for you three canopies down the road, how big of a reserve do you think it's going to hold? Do you really want to stuff the largest main and reserve into a container? If not, do you really want to short yourself on reserve canopy size on your first rig?

None of that is mentioning that you're buying gear for yourself several years and several hundred jumps down the road. Do you really think you know what you want that far down the road? Do you really think you know enough about gear to make that sort of call today?

Let's look at this another way. What would you say if a 16 year old kid told you that he wanted to buy a brand new car with the idea that he could drive it for 10 years and really get his money's worth out it. Do you really think a 16 year old kid is going to stick with a car for 10 years? Will he really have the same needs and wants at 16 that he will at age 23 or 24?

Is there a chance you might advise him to buy an affordable used car, and see how that goes? Then maybe sell it for another affordable used car in a couple years? Maybe gradually work his way up to a 'nice', brand new car after a couple of used ones and several years of driving/life experience?

In the world of skydiving, you're the equivalent of a 16 year old kid. Buy a used rig, jump it for a season or two, learn 500% more than you know now about gear and skydiving, then revisit the gear issue. If you buy 'smart', you should be able to sell your rig for at least 80% of what you paid for it. Some people have sold them for even money, and some people have even made a profit selling used gear.

Buy something that will easily fit the 190 main you want to start with, and easily fit a 190 (or larger) reserve.

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Im in the same boat you are. 35 jump A lic holder, trying to acquire all my own gear.

One word of advice/warning. Before buying anything used check with the manufacturer for how much a stock new equivalent piece of gear would cost.

Im finding in a lot of cases you can get stock items for the same or in many cases less than what people want for their 2-4 year old used gear. People paid premium for their custom colors (that you probably dont even like), and they hope they can pass that cost on to you.

One example..you can get a stock Wings container for 40% off the base rig price (options not included).

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NWFlyer

Also, you've just laid out a ton of cash to get your license, and will lay out a ton of cash for other gear like a helmet, jumpsuit, altimeter, etc. Why not spend a little less on the first set of gear and spend it on some skydives?



If it was a hobby such as any other adult hobby I would agree.

But I've always viewed it more importantly as life saving equipment first, sports equipment second. I have also seen a hodgepod of mismatched gear and other items sold to newbies which I'd consider junk and not bother with myself.

There is no ethics in used gear sales. Anybody will sell you anything and tell you how wonderful it is.

Your viewpoint is your viewpoint and if your comfortable with it fine. However I have seen a lot of newbie jumpers hurt with used gear. I don't think of it as a "New Car" I think of it as the state of the art medical treatment your going to want once an injury occurs. Also industry veterans always promote used shitty mismatched gear as being perfectly acceptable. Their vested interest is in fact a conflict of interests.

I once chopped and was without a main to jump and the offers of substitute used replacement gear from "somebody" with something to sell really proved to me my safety was less of a concern than the money they needed for something I thought was not suitable and didn't want to hurt myself jumping.

I'd buy a used car to save money. Not equipment I am going to trust with my life. I've also seen actual injuries as a result of unsuitable gear, and many newbies jump gear I thought were accidents waiting to happen.

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However I have seen a lot of newbie jumpers hurt with used gear.



Kind of a broad statement...what say we qualify it with some facts.

A lot as in how many? When, where & what types of injuries?

And you know for certain they would NOT have been injured if they were on brand new gear?

Your argument doesn't make sense...sure someone may sell something old and inappropriate, but that happens a whole lot less than the other way around.


And ANYONE buying a used parachute should have it checked out prior to purchase...if it passes inspection, there is no difference between a newbie or skygod when it comes to the safety performance & reliability of that gear.

I was in the sport 10 years or more before I bought a new piece of gear...the math didn't make sense to me.

With all kinds of 2 - 5 year old stuff on the market with a couple hundred jumps or less...someone on a limited budget can safely go with used gear & have jump money left to be able to use it.

It's built to hold up well during a fairly predictable set of usage parameters...buy something still within those parameters and you'll be fine.

Shying away because it has some cooties on it and won't work right, is just silly.

I use my cars brakes to save my life a whole lot more often that I do my parachute...I haven't bought a NEW car in 20 years, the brakes on the used cars I buy work just like a new cars - they're just broken in a bit.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Your viewpoint is your viewpoint and if your comfortable with it fine. However I have seen a lot of newbie jumpers hurt with used gear. I don't think of it as a "New Car" I think of it as the state of the art medical treatment your going to want once an injury occurs. Also industry veterans always promote used shitty mismatched gear as being perfectly acceptable. Their vested interest is in fact a conflict of interests.



Mismatched as in an orange and blue canopy with a red and gray container? Please tell me how that impacts safety in any way. :S

As for "state of the art" it's perfectly possible to find used gear with exactly the same features as brand-new gear, for a significant discount.

Your opinion is your opinion, of course, but don't go tarnishing all used gear with the same brush. And your "opinion" that used gear is somehow less safe isn't backed up by any reality I've witnessed.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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SoCalJumper

***Also, you've just laid out a ton of cash to get your license, and will lay out a ton of cash for other gear like a helmet, jumpsuit, altimeter, etc. Why not spend a little less on the first set of gear and spend it on some skydives?



If it was a hobby such as any other adult hobby I would agree.

But I've always viewed it more importantly as life saving equipment first, sports equipment second. I have also seen a hodgepod of mismatched gear and other items sold to newbies which I'd consider junk and not bother with myself.

There is no ethics in used gear sales. Anybody will sell you anything and tell you how wonderful it is.

Your viewpoint is your viewpoint and if your comfortable with it fine. However I have seen a lot of newbie jumpers hurt with used gear. I don't think of it as a "New Car" I think of it as the state of the art medical treatment your going to want once an injury occurs. Also industry veterans always promote used shitty mismatched gear as being perfectly acceptable. Their vested interest is in fact a conflict of interests.

I once chopped and was without a main to jump and the offers of substitute used replacement gear from "somebody" with something to sell really proved to me my safety was less of a concern than the money they needed for something I thought was not suitable and didn't want to hurt myself jumping.

I'd buy a used car to save money. Not equipment I am going to trust with my life. I've also seen actual injuries as a result of unsuitable gear, and many newbies jump gear I thought were accidents waiting to happen.

Your post shows how little you know about gear. But as an opinion, it’s yours and you are entitled to it. Just like NWflyer is entitled to hers.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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It's pretty well assumed that most rigs can hold three sizes of gear: the "ideal" size, one up, and one down.

I have an old Javelin J4 that held a Silhouette 210, Sabre2 190, Triathlon 175, Storm 150, and Pilot 140. The Pilot was a little loose, but not dangerously so.

I also have an Infinity I33 made for a 150, and I'm confident I could put a Sil 170 in it, DEFINITELY a Pulse 170, easily an anything-135, probably a good chunk of larger 120s (like a Pilot 117 or Sabre2 120, especially if they have dacron lines), and I'm pretty sure it would be happy with a Velo 111 or similar.
Brian

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I have an old Javelin J4 that held a Silhouette 210, Sabre2 190, Triathlon 175, Storm 150, and Pilot 140. The Pilot was a little loose, but not dangerously so.



That’s a 28% difference.....something had to be on dangerous side. I would tend to with what the people that make them says fits.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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airtwardo


With all kinds of 2 - 5 year old stuff on the market with a couple hundred jumps or less...someone on a limited budget can safely go with used gear & have jump money left to be able to use it.



Have you looked at prices on 2-4 year old stuff lately? Lots of people in the classifieds and the facebook groups are charging such high prices it doesnt make sense not to just buy new instead.
At least that has been my experience thus far as I try to put together my gear.
Only big savings I am seeing is on used AAD's with only a year or two of life left.

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lyosha

.

I've been told by people at my DZ to buy the first container used because you likely grow out of it in one active season or less , but I'm 6'5" and can't find jack in terms of used containers so for me it's starting to seem like more and more of a force majeour situation...



Can I just say how much I hate this "advice" from experienced jumpers to new jumpers. It reinforces a very unhealthy culture in which quick downsizing is the expectation. It leads new jumpers to buy gear which is not right for them and pushes them to downsize too rapidly (because now their main is way too tight in their container, among other things).
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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Doug_Davis

***
With all kinds of 2 - 5 year old stuff on the market with a couple hundred jumps or less...someone on a limited budget can safely go with used gear & have jump money left to be able to use it.



Have you looked at prices on 2-4 year old stuff lately? Lots of people in the classifieds and the facebook groups are charging such high prices it doesnt make sense not to just buy new instead.
At least that has been my experience thus far as I try to put together my gear.
Only big savings I am seeing is on used AAD's with only a year or two of life left.

Though the classifieds have their place...that's kind of like only shopping at one car lot when looking for some used wheels.

Fine if you're in a hurry, but as you said the selection is limited and it's tough to bargain with a computer.

As was suggested earlier, have a good idea what you want, have cash in hand, put the word out among friends & acquaintances to keep an eye out. There are deals out there.

Heck not long ago someone I've never met came on here & mentioned he was looking for such & such...struck a chord in my mind and I gave a buddy a call.

He had a nice complete rig sitting around that he wasn't using...I put the two together & now one guy is jumping his ass off with a 6 year old rig that had 400 jumps on it, main-reserve & AAD. The other guy has 2500 bucks to play with.

Don't get me wrong...ya wanna buy new, go for it.

I'm just saying there are other options for those on a budget willing to put in a little work looking.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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lyosha

lol well if you know someone with a spare rig for someone 6'5" please let me know... :P



I'm a bit over 6'4"...It's not necessarily the the jumpers overall height that determines the fit.

It's the upper torso that matters, I once bought a used rig from someone about 5'9", he was kinda round on top with stubby little legs ~ that rig fit me every bit as well as my custom build one that I went to the factory to get measured for.

Remember also...if you find something close and it has the right articulated rings, having the harness altered to your specific needs may be a cost effective alternative to buying brand new.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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mjosparky

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I have an old Javelin J4 that held a Silhouette 210, Sabre2 190, Triathlon 175, Storm 150, and Pilot 140. The Pilot was a little loose, but not dangerously so.



That’s a 28% difference.....something had to be on dangerous side. I would tend to with what the people that make them says fits.

Sparky

The "people that make them" only say "up to ZP 190" which isn't terribly specific and leaves a lot of room for the jumper or local rigger to decide what fits.

The pilot required a very short closing loop, and I wouldn't keep it as a regular canopy in that rig ... but I never saw it as dangerous. Everything packed up, the pin was tight enough it had to actually be pulled, and the flaps all overlapped properly. It was definitely soft, though. The 150 in that rig fit much nicer, and I would define it as the minimum canopy for the container.

But the point was to illustrate that containers can hold more than just the one or two sizes they advertise.
Brian

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