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billvon

War on terror

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It's skybytch - with a Y. At least have the courtesy to spell it correctly if you're going to use it.
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maybe that's what a moderator is for?
i dont like anti american/governmentthemes. that WAS NOT what i expected when i came to the talk back forum to relax, after all it isnt idle chit chat. K? ....and that was the point i was trying to make.

Okay. Let me know which threads bother you and I'll delete them just for you. After all, I do want to be sure you have a relaxing experience here. Hope that doesn't bother anyone who enjoys these discussions. Sorry, gang, cliff isn't able to ignore threads that upset him, so we have to stop posting such things.
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i am going to make one more rude post to chromeboy, so please standby......

Hope you're prepared to see it disappear. Not going to tolerate another rude post from you today.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

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I have to go to dinner now. Can't wait any longer. But if he posts some...

If you have something to say, shut up.
Is your speech over, or can I finish my nap?
You make silence a wonderful thing to look forward to..
You have a fine voice - why spoil it by talking?
You're like a slow leak - people hear you but they can't turn you off.
She has a black belt in mouth.
He is the only person who enters the room mouth first.
It's always difficult to follow an outstanding speaker. Fortunately, I don't have that problem tonight.
If he ever had to eat his words, he'd put on fifteen pounds.
I wish you were on TV - so I could turn you off.
You should be wired for silence.
He has such a big mouth he can eat a banana sideways.
Please close your mouth so I can see who you are.
You remind me of a clarinet - a wind instrument.
Your mouth is getting too big for your muzzle.
If you ever bite your tongue, you'll die from acid poisoning.
I can always tell when you're lying - your lips are moving.
If you'll stop telling lies about me, I'll stop telling the truth about you.
Every time you open your mouth, some idiot starts talking.
I'm not hard of hearing, I'm just ignoring you.
I understand everything - except what you're saying.
If you think of something to say, don't mention it.
I wish I had a hearing aid so I could turn you off.
I don't mind you are talking, so long as you don't mind me not listening.
I don't mind you are talking, so long as you don't mind me not listening.
It's nice hearing from you - next time, just send a postcard.
And your completely irrelevant point is...?
If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart.
Speak up! You are entitled to your own stupid opinion.
And your idiotic, whiny-assed opinion would be...?
I notice that you never let an idea interrupt the flow of your conversation.
A guy with your IQ should have a low voice too!
You looked intelligent until you opened your mouth.

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>so in closing, the only thing im sorry about is calling bill a mullet head. i dont like
> anti american/government themes.
It's ok, I've been called worse. And lest you think that I am anti-american, let me make it clear that I hope we _do_ bring down Al Quaeda and Bin Laden. So far we haven't. I hope we do better in the next few years, and I hope we do it while killing as few civilians as possible. Surely you don't hope anything different?
>that WAS NOT what i expected when i came to the talk back forum to relax,
> after all it isnt idle chit chat.
Well, tell you what - if you just ignore the threads that might bug you, I'll ignore the mullet head stuff. It should be pretty straightforward - if you don't click on the threads that have titles like 'war on terror' or 'bush and religion' you'll avoid the more controversial ones. There are plenty of completely idle threads. Just look for 'boobies' in the title.
-bill von

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What is worse than innocent people dying IMO?
[...]
Living the rest of our lives fearful of when the next terrorist attack is going to kill me, my family, or my friends.
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The problem is, in bombing Afghanistan, we are causing innocent people (many of whom live in small villages and have never heard of Osama bin Laden) to live under just the conditions you describe - living in fear of the next American bomb that may not hit its intended target, and may instead kill their children, family, or friends.
We can argue about numbers all day, but I don't think anyone will deny that some of the bombs we dropped on Afghanistan killed civilians. You can also argue that those innocent lives were somehow necessary to accomplish our goal. However, if you're saying that you have greater right to live free from fear than a mother in a small village in Afghanistan does, that's a different argument.
Amy

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Okay Bill, I was planning on working hard (at work!) but you pulled me in with this thread. It's your fault I'm not working now.
From what I've heard and read on the casualty figures, the 4000 # is high. It comes from interviewing several people who were seeing the same bombings and each of them saw the same people killed. I'm not saying that there were no civilians killed, just that it's not that many. I do think the US should be given credit for trying to minimalize the number of civilian casualties. Which in many media outlets it is not.
As for bombing Japan, the decison was made at the time with the best information possible. It's easy to sit on the sidelines 50 years later and say we shouldn't have done that, but it's a big difference when you are responsible for the decision. We did save a lot of lives by dropping those bombs, whether or not it was more than what was lost is irrelevant. Japan started that war, and treated all nations in Asia horribly, and our prisoners just as bad (read Ghost Soldiers to see). Also, I'm sure you can find Chinese who survived the rape of Nanking who think the US did the right thing. And remember, the two countries that the Allies defeated in WWII are now our allies. I think that part of that was due to our so decisively crushing them. We can't say the same about Iraq and the gulf war, or North Korea.
I think you or someone in this thread made the comment about there being nothing worse than war. I think there is, when you become so fearful of dying or getting hurt that you submit to anyone who invades your country no matter what they do to you. That's a whole lot worse.
Anyway, on a lighter note, Bill, are you really one of those commie-fag-pinko unpatriotic wierdo's? or are you a closet listen of Rush Limbaugh, and have "US out of UN" posters in your bedroom, and a dartboard with Hillary Clinton's picture in the center?

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Amy, It is a matter of self defense vs an outright attack not over who has a greater right to live. It is sad that innocent people must get mixed up in this but I don't believe the option of ignoring the issue will solve the problem. Clinton tried that for 8 years and allowed things to come to a boiling point. Now we are having to deal with it. The time for peaceful resolution of this was 5-6 years ago when the Kobar towers were bombed and our soldiers killed, or when the US embassies in Africa were bombed, or when the US Cole was bombed. Were those lives any less valuable?
The truth is that Al Quaeda set the conditions to increase the chances for civilian casualties by hiding combatants, ammunition, and wartime supplies among villages and religious buildings. They did this to specifically target the will of the world and support for the operation in the US. They contributed directly to the deaths of their own populace.

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A little over four weeks ago I lost a fellow PJ and friend in Afghanistan(SrA Jason Cunningham). I for on believe that his loss wasn't in vain and that he died trying to preserve our most basic freedoms as american citizens. We lost alot of inocense and some freedoms on 9/11. I for one stand behind all that we are doing to try to restore those rights and keep america free of the tyrany of terror. If I too loose my life for what I believe then I would like to believe that It wasn't just lost for nothing. Please appreciate what your fellow citizens and skydivers are trying to accomplish. (prevention of another 9/11). Soon I will be in harms way, but atleast I want to be thinking that there aren't a bunch of people sitting around critisizing what I or anyone over here is doing for their country. Alot of better people than you and me, died for that flag you people display on your cars, houses, and even on some of your work clothes. I think the opinions of many people sitting in their homes by a computer are a bit unneeded in this time of crisis. Keep all those comments to yourselves and lets get through this togoether, for once have a little faith in your Government, and when you see one of those guys that just got back, show them a little apreciation. Send them a letter over there you might just make a friend. If not send me a note, a sky diving magazine. well I just feel that we need to stay together and get through this. Anybody wanna join us we need a few good people.
McKill
See you in the sky ....

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I want to be thinking that there aren't a bunch of people sitting around critisizing what I or anyone over here is doing for their country.

Please don't think that anyone is criticizing you and your fellow soldiers. You are doing an incredible job for us and it is GREATLY appreciated. While I may not agree with everything our President and top military brass are making you do, while I hope that someday there will be no need for war, that in NO WAY means that I don't appreciate those of you who are out there putting yourself in harm's way for our country. You are truly the best of the best, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

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Please don't think that anyone is criticizing you and your fellow soldiers.

I find that hard to agree with. It is not the 'top brass' fighting the tactical war where these civilian death's are occurring. Statements like:
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I don't think we've been doing a great job at avoiding innocent deaths.

are criticising our soldiers and their execution of the war.

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It is not the 'top brass' fighting the tactical war where these civilian death's are occurring.

It's never the top brass who fight the actual battles - they just make the decisions. Because I don't agree with them does not mean that I don't appreciate those who are on the front lines defending my country.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

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Please don't think that anyone is criticizing you and your fellow soldiers. You are doing an incredible job for us and it is GREATLY appreciated. While I may not agree with everything our President and top military brass are making you do, while I hope that someday there will be no need for war, that in NO WAY means that I don't appreciate those of you who are out there putting yourself in harm's way for our country. You are truly the best of the best, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Agreed Lisa, and well said.
I'm somewhat of a pacifist myself, but it's only because of the sacrifice so many soldier make that I feel that way. When 4 of my countries soldier died this week my heart broke.
My dislike of the policies that order them around will never distract from the reality that they help me sleep safely at night.
_Am
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MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

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>Statements like:
>>I don't think we've been doing a great job at avoiding innocent deaths.
>are criticising our soldiers and their execution of the war.
In the 1980's we gave millions of dollars and tons of weapons to Al Quaeda. Do you support giving arms to Al Quaeda? If not, are you critical of our government and their execution of foreign policy?
In 1999 we bombed the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia accidentally. Do you support the bombing of embassies throughout the world? If not, why are you so critical of the soldiers and their execution of their duties? Why don't you support them?
I am critical of many of the things our country does. I still support it 100%. I am critical of many things USPA does, but I support them as well. Anyone who has had children understands the concept of disagreeing with someone but standing behind them 100% - you can't be a parent without doing it. Most americans also understand that you can be critical of a government, a political party, a leader, or an organization and still support it. Heck, more than half the country voted against George Bush, and we still support him as president.
Criticism? Yeah, I think it's bad when we make mistakes and kill innocent people, and we should do less of that. Call me crazy. But I'd suggest you talk to people who are in the military - they don't think it's so hot either, and they do their best to avoid those sort of screwups. Give them a little credit.
-bill von

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In the 1980's we gave millions of dollars and tons of weapons to Al Quaeda. Do you support giving arms to Al Quaeda? If not, are you critical of our government and their execution of foreign policy?

Then yeah, now, no. It is very easy to criticize this in hindsight. Too bad the guys that made the decisions can't see into the future huh?
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In 1999 we bombed the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia accidentally. Do you support the bombing of embassies throughout the world? If not, why are you so critical of the soldiers and their execution of their duties? Why don't you support them?

No, I am not critical of them. They are doing their absolute best and I can't expect anything more from them. I understand that they have one of the hardest jobs in the world and that in execution, it is not like the war movies and video games everyone is so familiar with.
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Criticism? Yeah, I think it's bad when we make mistakes and kill innocent people, and we should do less of that. Call me crazy. But I'd suggest you talk to people who are in the military - they don't think it's so hot either, and they do their best to avoid those sort of screwups.

There is a difference between criticizing the policies of our government and criticizing the people who are executing those policies (soldiers). You have crossed that line on several occasions either intentionally or through ignorance. BTW, I talk to our soldiers about this on a daily basis and I daresay that they would not feel 'supported' by your comments so far.
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Give them a little credit.

I give them all the credit in the world. I do that partially by not second guessing everything they do and trust that they are doing their best to limit casualties (all casualties).

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'this topic is silly purly because you are all arguing different things some ppl are going on about ppl hating the soldiers when nobody even said that.
1. some one said Bush was doing what was best for the country that is crap, he is following his own agenda and making decision based on 2 things 1. his beliefs 2. votes he couldnt get a rats arse about anyone else in the world nor about your children in 50 years he wants to be relected till his term runs out then retire into the world that he wants. however this isnt just bush this is what about 90% of the world would do and the other 10% arnt suitible for leadership.
point dont be conned the choices arnt made for the greater good of the country
2. im not even gunna go into all the differnet wars brought up its like comparing cars and cows
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

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Please don't think that anyone is criticizing you and your fellow soldiers. You are doing an incredible job for us and it is GREATLY appreciated. While I may not agree with everything our President and top military brass are making you do, while I hope that someday there will be no need for war, that in NO WAY means that I don't appreciate those of you who are out there putting yourself in harm's way for our country. You are truly the best of the best, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.


Well said Lisa, and I completely agree. The Canadian people are currently going through a rough time, most likely due to a mistake made by the US military. It still doesn't mean that we hate the soldiers, or do not stand by their side. Some of us may disagree with how some wars are fought, or the decisions made by the leaders of States and militairy, but those feelings do not filter down to the soldier in the field
One can disagree with an act, yet respect and encourage those acting it out.
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

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If you want people to _be_ in that foxhole I don't want you in any sort of position of power. There is nothing worse than war. We will someday outgrow it. That day is not today (unfortunately) but the day will come when people no longer kill each other because of the color of their skins, uniforms or flags.
____________________________________
I wanted to find this quote a couple of days ago when the thread was going full bore, but I couldn't. Now I found it.
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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight: nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety: is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better men than himself

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight: nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety: is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better men than himself.

Roosevelt I think. I love that quote.

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most likely due to a mistake made by the US military.


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. Certainly it is possible but all the information I have so far is that US PLANES were involved. I have asked a friend who is there right now who was controlling the aircraft but haven't gotten a response yet. Either because he can't say or he just hasn't been around to answer the email. To the best of my knowledge Canada has Tactical Air Control Parties that work with their ground troops just like the US, Britain, Holland, Korea, soon to be Colombia, and many other countries. It is not uncommon at all for US controllers to work with foreign aircraft and foreign controllers to work with US aircraft. Happens all the time. Just because it was US aircraft involved doesn't mean anything. A lot goes into dropping bombs in a "Troops in contact" situation. The ultimate "responsibility" rests with the "Ground Commander" that owns the piece of real estate where the bomb will impact. More than likely a fire support officer or S-3 (Officer in charge of the battle) gave the clearance to fire to whomever was controlling. The S-3 is also in charge of knowing where his people are. That is the hard part...even in a training exercise it can be very difficult to keep track. Thats a little background anyway. I'm just saying lets not jump to any conclusions about who's "fault" it was. In the end.....it really doesn't matter. Does it? Just like Jay....those guys aren't coming back.
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

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There are really a lot of great ideas being tossed around in this thread. It was mentioned earlier about a world someday where there is no war. I'm just wondering if that is possible. I look at the present evolutionary state of man and I don't really see a whole lot of difference from the people who were once killing each other on battlefields with swords and clubs. Sure we have high tech weapons now, but I wonder if the people behind the weapons are capable of a better society where there is no war. I really think war is a fact of life and is going to be with us until our own demise in the future. There is a lot of people on this thread who are a whole lot smarter than I am. Any Ideas on how it would be possible to achieve an ideal world where war doesn't exist??? I don't mean to be negative, but is that really possible? Steve

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Clay,
I know back in the 70's that was a real problem. Too many people were spaced out on weed. It was even hard to walk through an airport with your uniform on. People would put you down for who you were and what you represented. It's kind of refreshing to have a knew wave of patriotism in this country. Steve

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