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Spiffycop

older but cheaper rig or a newer but more expensive rig??

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Ok I'm looking to buy my first rig. I'm just shy of my A license but I am tired of renting.
I've found two I'm looking at: a 96' vector III with a 95' pd 190 and a 96' Tempo reserve. The container will need to be sent off to have a service bulletin done and a boc added. So there's a couple hundred.
The 2nd is an 06' Mirage g4 with a 97' Sabre 1 170 and a 2011 pd reserve. There's a slim chance that it will need ato be resized.
Both have room to downsize some. The vector is 10 years older and the reserve will need to be replaced soon but the container allegedly only has 150 jumps on it. The G4 is in good shape but 3x the money.
What's yalls opinions?

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Are you in a rush to get your gear? Are you jumping in the next few months (ie: winter).

I'd say, if you plan on doing at least 20 jumps in the next couple months, start looking really hard. If you don't plan on doing that many jumps over the next couple months, then hold off and wait for something better to come up.

Also, forget the age of the gear. Set a budget and work with that. In my honest opinion, you "can" get gear for less than $2000, but you may be sacrificing something (which could be your safety). There are cases where you luck out on someone getting out of the sport, or just chance on a sweet deal, but most of the time, it's people selling junk to noobs. Anyone that asks me, I say that you should be able to get a VERY reasonable, fairly current set of gear for about $2500. Honestly...I'd hang on for a bit. You're excited, but you don't want to get a set of shitty gear that you'll have trouble offloading.

Since you're considering the more expensive set of gear, I assume cost isn't you're #1 limiting factor. Again, like I said...set a budget and work from there. You'll also likely get a much better deal buying the pieces individually rather than buying a complete set. It's not hard, but I'd recommend making friends with a rigger or someone knowledgeable around your DZ. Be patient...

Now, for everyone that is about to flip out and say you can get it for less, go back and read what I just wrote above. I agree with you. As an example, I setup a full set of gear, with 3 yr old AAD and a main with only 50 jumps on it for $1700. The reason I got it so cheap? Some luck, but mostly being an odd size. I needed gear for wingsuiting and I'm a really small guy (120lbs). Just so happened that someone was selling a Triathlon 99 with 50 jumps on it for real cheap because hardly anyone can, and/or wants to jump a Triathlon, let alone a 99. So, that's the "chance" component along with right place right time.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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I don't understand why riggers take age into consideration. I have a raven 1 from 86 that I still have packed as a reserve. It has 1 ride and it's still like new. The design hasn't changed so why buy a new one? I trust it as my reserve every jump.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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It isn't like new. Every pack job adds wear to the fabric and increases the permeability. Not saying it's bad. I have older Raven's in some of my rigs. But it is an older design, no longer available and doesn't fly like many newer reserves. IF someone knows how to fly Ravens/had them as mains then design is no issue.

PD reserves that go in for testing do not test like new. They usually are returned with 5 or 10 more pack jobs. Part of what lets us get away with F-111 type reserves that are sometimes smaller is the fact they are much like new and are still nearer to 0-3 cfm.

I've got lots of old gear too. But it doesn't last forever. If an 86 reserve had been kept in date for 27 years it's probably getting tired. That's why I worked for awhile on getting a field porosity tester. No much support from my colleagues at PIA so I dropped it.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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mcordell

I don't understand why riggers take age into consideration. I have a raven 1 from 86 that I still have packed as a reserve. It has 1 ride and it's still like new. The design hasn't changed so why buy a new one? I trust it as my reserve every jump.



....................................................................................
The last reserve - that I refused to repack - was a round canopy sewn during the acid-mesh era (1980s).

Otherwise, I just remind jumpers to only load their gear in accordance with manufacturers' instructions.

For example: the last jumper - that I advised not to buy a Micro Raven - bought it despite my sarcastic comments about "stupid fat white men jumping Micro-Ravens." The next spring he made a series of mistakes on his way to an -off-airport landing. He stalled his Micro-Raven and broke a bunch of bones. The resale value of Micro-Ravens dropped radically!

As long as you load your Tempo within PISA's recommendations, I see no fuss with you keeping it in service for 20 or 25, maybe even 30 years.

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If loaded right I don't have any issue with the Tempo. I have one or two. But you DO NOT want a PD 190 main for your first canopy. That is made from what we call F-111 (actually a brand name no longer made anymore and better referred to as 0-3 cfm (cubic feet per minute) fabric). F-111 wears out and by the time they have 600-800 jumps they are done. They do not fly like zero porosity (zp) canopies, either older or newer designs. ZP canopies kept out of the sun can and do routinely last 1500-2000 jumps or more.

Others will disagree with me. And I have F-111 type canopies that I jump. But I started on rounds and have jumped lots of F-111 canopies. Best example is I have is a used to have a 280 sq. ft student type F-111 canopy and a 190 ZP canopy (I have lots of metal in one leg) When I wanted a guaranteed soft landing I grabbed the 190 zp.

Pretty much only old farts, demo jumpers, or really, really poor folks jump F-111 canopies.:) I fit into the old fart category. But the F-111 canopy is NOT my only canopy. It's my 3rd or 4th rig.

IF the PD 190 was big enough and not wore out it can be a first canopy. But when you moved to something else it would be a ZP canopy and you'd have a bigger learning curve. Too many ZP canopies out there you can start with.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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mcordell

I don't understand why riggers take age into consideration.



Because it's their riggers ticket and they have that choice. Easy fix, find a rigger that will pack it or get your rigger certificate and pack it yourself.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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Others will disagree with me. And I have F-111 type canopies that I jump. But I started on rounds and have jumped lots of F-111 canopies. Best example is I have is a used to have a 280 sq. ft student type F-111 canopy and a 190 ZP canopy (I have lots of metal in one leg) When I wanted a guaranteed soft landing I grabbed the 190 zp.




I to started on ragged out cheapos and after that made almost all my jumps on 0-3 cfm 7 cells. In 1985 I bought a Sharpchuter and never looked back. But I was making 20 to 30+ demos a year into some pretty tight spots. I could bring it almost straight down and get a tiptoe landing from ¾ brakes. I would replace them after 700/800 jumps because like Terry said by that time they are done.

I would never recommend this type of canopy to a newer jumper because there better choices out there today.

Sparky

Both my rigs had Tempos in them.


http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/Cable0004-2.jpg
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Sparky,

Of course you realize that he doesn't have a clue what a cheapo is. ;)

He thinks it's the vector three rig above.:P

To OP a cheapo is a military surplus round canopy that cost a few dollars. Of course now they are a few hundred dollars.:S

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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councilman24

If an 86 reserve had been kept in date for 27 years it's probably getting tired.



I absolutely agree with you. In my case it was assembled in 86 and packed 3 more times before being put away. It was stored packed in the rig in a climate controlled place after that until 2008 when I had it inspected. Mine is actually like new. My point was that age alone means nothing. I would agree that most reserves that were manufactured 20 years ago have seen some heavy handling but not all so I don't really get that hard and fast rule about not packing something after 20 years.

It's stuff like that (and the fact I want to understand my gear) that led me to apprentice under a rigger so I could pack my own gear. I've never felt like I wasted my time
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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96' vector III with a 95' pd 190 and a 96' Tempo reserve



Avoid the PD190. It's an F-111 canopy, and it's not what you want. Some people will tell you that it will be 'fine', but there's a reason that 99.9% of all sport canopies made today are Z-po, and the reason is that it's much better than F-111.

Quote

06' Mirage g4 with a 97' Sabre 1 170 and a 2011 pd reserve



A 170, just off student status? Unless you weight something less than 150 lbs, and have already put a good number of successful jumps on a 190, this is not the size canopy for you.

Furthermore, you never mentioned any of the reserve sizes, and that also needs to be considered.

My suggestion - ditch the idea of finding a complete rig. Consult with you instructors, and come up with a good size main for your first rig, then pick the closest size reserve (rounding up), and start hunting for gear that way.

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piisfish

I think he even thinks that all Vectors are vector Threes.
I doubt there were any ROL 96 Vector 3's



I'm not sure why you would think that I think all Vector containers are Vectir III's? I was interested enough in the rig to have a rigger look at the Vector III. I am new, to this, yes, but don't appreciate your assumption.

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davelepka

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96' vector III with a 95' pd 190 and a 96' Tempo reserve



Avoid the PD190. It's an F-111 canopy, and it's not what you want. Some people will tell you that it will be 'fine', but there's a reason that 99.9% of all sport canopies made today are Z-po, and the reason is that it's much better than F-111.

***06' Mirage g4 with a 97' Sabre 1 170 and a 2011 pd reserve



A 170, just off student status? Unless you weight something less than 150 lbs, and have already put a good number of successful jumps on a 190, this is not the size canopy for you.

Furthermore, you never mentioned any of the reserve sizes, and that also needs to be considered.

My suggestion - ditch the idea of finding a complete rig. Consult with you instructors, and come up with a good size main for your first rig, then pick the closest size reserve (rounding up), and start hunting for gear that way.
The reserve with the Mirage is a pd-160. I weigh 153-160, I've talked to my insrructors who say that I'd be fine with a 170.

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Missed that. Must be Vector II.

To OP. Vector II's are fine rigs. I own three. But they are not suitable for all types of current skydiving. If it doesn't have a BOC already some else may have decided it wasn't worth updating. Sounds like someone trying to dump an old out of date rig.

Also probably doesn't have an RSL unless it's been added. At that time they were not standard on Vectors and the maker didn't believe in them.

.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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The reserve with the Mirage is a pd-160. I weigh 153-160, I've talked to my insrructors who say that I'd be fine with a 170.



Ok, but the reserve is a 160, will you be fine with that too?

I've never met anyone who looked up at their reserve and wished it was smaller. How about you round up to a PD-176, in that case?

Again, your chances of finding a complete rig that has the canopies, sizes, options and harness that you need are slim. Branch out and look for components, and purchase them as they come up. Use that time to make the most out of the rental options at the DZ, and if you can get a reserve/container together, you can demo various canopies before committing to one.

I'll repeat, don't rush the downsizing. Make sure you string together 5 or 10 'good' jumps on each size canopy before moving down one size at a time. By 'good' I mean where you have control over the canopy, and you can fly a solid, repeatable pattern, and flare for a soft landing.

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Spiffycop


The reserve with the Mirage is a pd-160. I weigh 153-160, I've talked to my instructors who say that I'd be fine with a 170.



Is that weight a "stepping out of the shower" weight?
Or a "Street weight"? (street clothes and shoes)

Or an exit weight?

Exit weight is what you weigh with all your gear on. As in "stepping on the plane" weight.
That's what wingloading is based on.

I go 155-160 "stepping out of the shower." And around 190 exit weight.
That would put you around 1.15:1 under a 170 and around 1.2:1 under that 160 reserve.
Your instructors may think that's ok, but Brian Germain's W/L chart disagrees.

Something to think about.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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councilman24

PD reserves that go in for testing do not test like new. They usually are returned with 5 or 10 more pack jobs.



I have had a reserve that went in for testing and came back with a death certificate. On the other hand, I've sent in several VTC-2 360 tandem reserves that I'm pretty sure had 40 packs and 25 jumps (incomplete logs and manufactured without bowling-score data panels) that came back with okays for a further 40 packs/25 jumps. At two packs per year, they will have been in service for almost 40 years before going back for another permeability test.

A few days ago, I packed a PD reserve manufactured in 1989. You can still buy a new one of the same design. Unlike containers, for reserve canopies old is not the same as obsolete.

Mark

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mark



A few days ago, I packed a PD reserve manufactured in 1989. You can still buy a new one of the same design. Unlike containers, for reserve canopies old is not the same as obsolete.

Mark



True for PD but so as not to confuse the newbie there are older reserves that fly different (Ravens) and that are truly obsolete designs. (Swifts) Newbie buyers should consult a couple of people other than the seller.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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councilman24

***

A few days ago, I packed a PD reserve manufactured in 1989. You can still buy a new one of the same design. Unlike containers, for reserve canopies old is not the same as obsolete.

Mark



True for PD but so as not to confuse the newbie there are older reserves that fly different (Ravens) and that are truly obsolete designs. (Swifts) Newbie buyers should consult a couple of people other than the seller.

And they should always be suspicious of a rig an instructor is pushing them to buy. Some will try to take advantage of a noob.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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councilman24

Damn shame isn't it that worn out crap (NOT necessarily this rig but maybe) gets peddled to newbies. Noobs need to remember that skydivers represent all types of people, even the bad ones.:|



What is sad is that you hardly ever see another experienced jumper call them out on it. The “me, me, me” is getting bad in the sport.>:([:/]

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I guess my dom 1988 but never deployed 218 raven is gonna kill me if I ever have to use it. but I'll bet my life against it.:P

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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