Wings Reserve Boost vs. Skyhook

[thomas.n.thomas 0]

Edit. Failed to see pg 2 on my phone. All is well.

[PiLFy 0]

[I]"2. The white loop cam break because of "lockdown" or mis-assembly, especially on tandem systems. (This happens dozens of times a year.)"

Sir,

You just scared this Newbie. What exactly is a "Lockdown"?

Thank You.

[lyosha 46]

... so after consuming some alcohol and letting what you said brew for a day or so I have the following [probably newbie but hey I want to learn...] question:

Say the skyhook didn't have a collins lanyard. Am I in substantially more trouble than I would be with a regular RSL in the event of a riser breaking?

[Andy9o8 0]

nigel99

***

Quote

If you are so low that the difference between a MARD and a simple RSL makes the difference between life-and-death ... you have made a LOT of mistakes on your way to the scene of the accident.

As we know, a few low-altitude canopy collisions happen every year - and when they do, they do; and once the collision has occurred, fault has been rendered irrelevant, and the only issue is surviving the emergency.

(That said, sometimes at least one of the jumpers is not at fault.)

Ok this scenario is often quoted, but NEVER qualified. I was taught way back that below 1000ft you did not cutaway, but rather go straight to getting as much out as possible. I still live by this, as you have so many things that could result in going in at line stretch. BTW 1000ft is easy to reference as it is the start of your landing pattern for many people.

So at what point do you teach people with MARDs to go straight to reserve?

The point is not so much to alter EP training or planning, but to increase overall survivability given a wider range of actual jumper actions in response to the emergency.

Back in the 80's, an experienced jumper went in up at the old Herd's DZ when he cut away too low from a canopy collision and wrap. He didn't have an RSL. Bad decision, but he did it. He was high man; the lower man heard him yell "Shit!" as he fell past, which may have meant that he was so wrapped up in nylon that he didn't realize how low they were until he chopped clear and saw the ground. His reserve was extracting at impact. Given his altitude at chop, if he'd had a MARD, maybe he might have survived. Shit like that happens, and we all know that canopy collisions can happen to any of us.

[gowlerk 1,901]

Quote

Say the skyhook didn't have a collins lanyard. Am I in substantially more trouble than I would be with a regular RSL in the event of a riser breaking?

If you don't have a MARD (Skyhook) you have a chance of your reserve p/c clearing the trailing main. If you have a MARD, your p/c will be directly dragged into the mess.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[lyosha 46]

hmm...

Wouldn't that mess have more drag than a baglock, thus being sufficient to extract your reserve from the bag?

[skytribe 16]

I think you want either the main or PC to drag out the reserve. The combined effect of both is not conducive to a reserve deployment.

Just think of the PC punching into the tangle of lines/materials from a main canopy and these getting wrapped around the bag or even going through one set of lines out - this can result in a main/reserve entanglement or even keep the canopy in the freebag.

A MARD system should not result in changing emergency procedures.

[Deyan 31]

gowlerk

Quote

Say the skyhook didn't have a collins lanyard. Am I in substantially more trouble than I would be with a regular RSL in the event of a riser breaking?

If you don't have a MARD (Skyhook) you have a chance of your reserve p/c clearing the trailing main. If you have a MARD, your p/c will be directly dragged into the mess.

Of course you are assuming that the MARD will stay connected to the bridle, which may or may not be the case. We know that the Skyhook sometimes disconnects from the bridle, before the freebag being extracted. Many of those occasions happen at higher speed. When a riser break, the speed will still be high, so there's a chance that there won't be any difference between broken riser with a RSL and a MARD without Collins Lanyard.

To be honest I don't believe anyone has ever tested that scenario. Or if I'm wrong and the guys at UPT(or anyone else) have done that, I hope to see the video or the data someday.
Until then the answer of that question will be pure speculation IMO.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[skydiverek 54]

billbooth

There is one major difference between the Skyhook and any other MARD system, and that is, only the Skyhook has the Collins' Lanyard.

Bill, the DRD MARD does use Collins Lanyard. Scroll down the page, here:

http://sws.aero/en/products/fire/features/drd/

[gregpso 1]

billbooth

There is one major difference between the Skyhook and any other MARD system, and that is, only the Skyhook has the Collins' Lanyard.

(So what is a Colins' Lanyard, and why is this important?) Let me explain:

I didn't market the Skyhook (my third attempt at a MARD system) for 5 years after I developed it, because it had a major flaw. If the RSL riser released before the non-RSL riser, the Skyhook (or any MARD system) would pull the reserve bag right into the lines of the still attached riser. The scenario almost guarantees a main-reserve entanglement, so putting out the Skyhook before this problem was solved, was out of the question.

The Collins' Lanyard solved this problem by making it theoretically impossible for the RSL riser to release without the non-RSL riser also being released. I introduced the Collins' Lanyard first, and gave it 5 years in the marketplace, to be sure it worked we'll enough so that the Skyhook would be a successful device, as tens of thousands of installations over the past 12 years have proven it to be.

(This is a very brief explanation of the Collins' Lanyard. If you wish to understand is design and function more fully, please go to uptvector.com and click on the Skyhook tab.)

As to another point brought up in this string: At first, I designed the Skyhook with a release force (in the event of a total malfunction) of under 2 pounds. Trouble was, we experienced a very high number of premature releases from backward spinning main malfunctions (a rather common event). Since increasing this release force to about 10 lbs. (when applied quickly, as it happens in a real malfunction) the number of premature releases has dropped drastically.

It generally takes many years of field experience to determine how well any component of a reserve deployment system will work out in the real world, so any meaningful discussion as to which MARD system is "best" will have to wait for a very long time. I give you the above facts, not to discredit any other MARD system, but to explain why I designed the Skyhook as I did. It is up to you to determine if my reasoning was sound.

Glad you are still there Bill. AS you know my jumping career was trashed in melbourne Australia cause i kept asking "is there a skyhook on the rig"

Do not jump any more but still support your invention.

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[wicodefly 0]

OP here.

I've decided to go with a Skyhook. After reading this month's Parachutist's article on USPA-gathered RSL and MARD data, seeing the only data available on Skyhook vs. other MARDs (data is scant from what I can see), and just making a personal decision, I decided it's what's best for me and my skill level.

In the Parachutist article they make a strong case for having an RSL or MARD, IMHO.

Also based on USPA and DZ's incident databases I see more incidents where having an RSL or MARD could have made a big difference.

I'm planning a trip to Axis flight school to take their canopy courses and improve my overall pilot skills. I just want to learn as much as possible about piloting for safety and fun reasons.

Fascinating discussion everyone, I'm learning so much. Thank you all.

Blue skies!

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[DBCOOPER 1]

"Good you came up with this one yourself. So how is the Collins Lanyard going to work, when a jumper fail to route the yellow cable through it after cleaning the release cables once a month? I've seen this not once, but twice. "


That's probably because the only reference as it how to route it is in the reserve packing part of the manual. The manual for this is weak at best.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[jumpwally 0]

Nice idea,,,but sadly it hasn't worked for many,many jumpers with 10 times your jump numbers.....how are you different ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Deyan 31]

PiLFy

Sir,

You just scared this Newbie. What exactly is a "Lockdown"?

Thank You.

Look at the attached photo!
It happens really often with the standard 3 ring risers. Mainly on tandems, but I've seen it on student rigs as well. When I worked as a packer I had to "fix" several risers every day.

All you have to do to prevent the riser from breaking is to push it back to normal position.

To have a broken riser from lockdown, all you need is a) lazy packer(or a packer who doesn't care) and b) tandem master who doesn't check his gear before jump.

cheers

edited to correct some typos

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[parachutist 1]

Deyan

To have a broken riser from lockdown, all you need is a) lazy packer(or a packer who doesn't care) and b) tandem master who doesn't check his gear before jump.

... and a lazy tandem instructor who didn't bother to straighten out the 3-rings when he dropped the rig off to said packer.

[PiLFy 0]

Hello, & Thank You.

So, a Lockdown = a twisted riser where the three rings are blocked from releasing as designed?

[Deyan 31]

PiLFy

Hello, & Thank You.

So, a Lockdown = a twisted riser where the three rings are blocked from releasing as designed?

Nope. It loads white loop way beyond its breaking strength. Broken loop= riser release.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[PiLFy 0]

Oh... OK, Thanks again.

[lyosha 46]

skytribe

I think you want either the main or PC to drag out the reserve. The combined effect of both is not conducive to a reserve deployment.

Just think of the PC punching into the tangle of lines/materials from a main canopy and these getting wrapped around the bag or even going through one set of lines out - this can result in a main/reserve entanglement or even keep the canopy in the freebag.

A MARD system should not result in changing emergency procedures.

I'm having trouble visualizing it :-/

Are there any videos online of a riser breaking? I'm very much a newbie, and have trouble visualizing what would happen to the main should a riser disengage. I know at least one person one of whose risers disengaged. This resulted in a side-by-side two-out which he then landed, but that is the extent of my understanding of what could go wrong...

[skytribe 16]

Quote

I know at least one person one of whose risers disengaged. This resulted in a side-by-side two-out which he then landed

I doubt he landed a side by side if one riser disengaged the main would collapse and not be flying. But he very well could have landed a side by side.

A side by side would require both sets of risers to remain connected - ie. you deployed the reserve without cutting away your main OR the reserve popped after you deployed a main (such as a low pull and the cypress activating around the same time). So this is may have been what happened.

The situations I was referring to involved a collapsed main trailing behind you because only one riser has released. Having only 1 riser connected will result in a non-flying canopy trailing behind you.

A reserve deployment when this occurs could result in

The reserve pilot chute/freebag completely missing the mess of lines/material and deploy cleanly leaving you with a clean reserve and a collapsed main trailing behind

Or if it interacted with the collapsed main canopy mess when deploying could result in

2. a reserve that is inflated or partially inflated as the PC/freebag went through lines and out the other side resulting in a main/reserve "entanglement". Not Good....

3. A collapsed main with a PC/Freebag entangled in the collapsed main canopy/line. And no reserve deployment at all. Really bad.

For the canopy to get out the freebag the lines need to unstow. For the lines to unstow the PC/Bridle need to have tension on them. If the PC/Freebag is caught up in the main canopy mess then you may find the reserve canopy may not even make it out of the freebag.

All 3 are not good situations, hence we teach cutting away a main before deploying a reserve in the event of a malfunction.

An MARD system can utilize the drag from a malfunctioned main OR the reserve pilot chute (in the event of a total) to activate the reserve. The system is designed that either can successfully activate the reserve deployment.

Having a reserve PC interacting with a malfunctioned main canopy is a bad situation and one to be avoided.

[pchapman 261]

Quote

You just scared this Newbie. What exactly is a "Lockdown"?

Never heard that term around where I am.
It appears to be what I've seen called a "flip through" on your 3-rings.

[riggerrob 558]

Broken mini (1 inch wide, Type 17 webbing) main risers were a big deal back around 1990. That was because mini-risers require much tighter manufacturing tolerances ... so tight that you cannot "eyeball" the tolerances.
The Parachute Industry Association recommended reinforcing the bottom of mini-risers in 1993.
In 1998, 3-Ring Inc. published exact dimensions.
Since then, broken mini-risers have become increasingly rare. Anyone still jumping (20-year-old) non-reinforced mini-risers is a dinosaur.

[riggerrob 558]

pchapman

Quote

You just scared this Newbie. What exactly is a "Lockdown"?

Never heard that term around where I am.
It appears to be what I've seen called a "flip through" on your 3-rings.

...................................................................................

First time I heard the term "lock-down".
Silly you and me!
Hee!
Hee!
All these years, I have been calling the "flip-throughs."
This past summer I straightened out dozens of "flipped-through" tandem risers.

[stratostar 5]

See you two crusty old fuks can learn new tricks.... LOL

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[lyosha 46]

riggerrob

Broken mini (1 inch wide, Type 17 webbing) main risers were a big deal back around 1990. That was because mini-risers require much tighter manufacturing tolerances ... so tight that you cannot "eyeball" the tolerances.
The Parachute Industry Association recommended reinforcing the bottom of mini-risers in 1993.
In 1998, 3-Ring Inc. published exact dimensions.
Since then, broken mini-risers have become increasingly rare. Anyone still jumping (20-year-old) non-reinforced mini-risers is a dinosaur.

Is it a mini-riser only issue?