Dries 0 #1 December 8, 2013 Hi! I'm looking to buy a rig next summer, and I really need some advice. I got 60 jumps now, and by the time I'll buy my rig (in six months), I'll have reached 100 at least. I currently rent a Pilot 170 at my DZ, and I'll soon downsize to 150 when I get completly comfortable flying the 170. I'm very lightweight: 122lbs And I sometimes wear 10lbs of lead, depending on who I'm jumping with, but it should be mentioned, as it affects the wingloading. Now as I'm very light, I got some problems going forward when there's some wind. Even with the 170 sq ft I sometimes go backwards if there's some wind. This is very frustrating, because I'm always afraid of making my appoarch to far, resulting in an exhausting walk to the hangar... So what I actually really want when buying a rig is that I have a canopy that penetrates that damn wind. So my first guess would be to have a bigger wingloading, like 1.1 or so, like many at my dropzone told. But the problem is, to have that wingloading, I need a canopy of about 135sq ft. (calculated with flyfirebird.com) But I've read several articles that said that a 230sq ft loaded at 1.1 flies safer/less agressive then a 135 loaded at 1.1. Which is very understandable. What would you guys think about me flying a 135 sq canopy? To risky or quiet doable? Also, I don't like ground hungry canopies, just the way they fly, and also, when heading to the DZ from a tracking jump that ended out far, a high glide ratio canopy gets you back much easier... and I also like to glide a little longer when flaring, in stead of agressively pulling those brakelines, giving the feeling of not really flying, but just going down... So, shortly said, I'm looking for a canopy that can get me through the winds, and that has a very good glide ratio. (Maybe to do some ground launching in the future) I've been looking around, and the PD Pulse seemed like to have a good GR, according to the PD website. I've also seen that those french Electra canopies have a good GR... Also the stilleto looked like having a good GR, but that one has a tapered wing, so not recommend for beginners I guess (I'm quiet new to canopy types, so correct me if I'm wrong) Any suggestions from you guys on which canopy and what size? I also hope that it is a canopy that I will like for a long time, so not regretting it's to big, or to slow after some time flying it... thanks in advance! Blueskies Dries Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #2 December 8, 2013 always a tough issue with light weight newbies one big challenge with sub 150 canopies is the relatively shorter lines lengths, any mistake with a turn near the ground are magnified with bad results this really is a "talk to your instructors" item, they're in the best position to judge your abilities and discuss the options you could get a used 150 and jump it for awhile to get used to the smaller platform and performance, then go to the 135, there are plenty of good canopy brand choicesGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #3 December 9, 2013 Stiletto NOT recommended for new jumpers: http://www.performancedesigns.com/stiletto.asp Typical new jumper canopies in North America: PD - Sabre2 - Pulse - Spectre - Silhouette Aerodyne - Pilot - Triathlon Icarus - Safire2 Here are 22 excellent pages of relevant info about canopy size and flight. http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdfThe choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
al05r 2 #4 December 9, 2013 Hi Dries - I weigh exactly the same as you! ... and when I had about 50 jumps I bought my Silhouette 135, and am still flying the same wing ~600 jumps later... Looking back now, I know it was a mistake. The first few dozen landings scared the crap out of me, and I truly believe it was more a matter of luck than skill that I never seriously hurt myself ! I strongly advise against following my example, and going for a docile 150 canopy with a bigger reserve. At the very least, try to borrow or demo a canopy of the same make/size as the one you are intending to buy. If the (experienced and respected) person who owns the canopy is not willing to let you jump it, there's your clue right there ... Also, since you mentioned lead - don't forget that 10lb of lead is almost 10% of your body weight. That will certainly have an effect on how the canopy flies. Combine this with a small(ish) wing and an ill-fitting weight belt and hey presto: unexpected, unintentional harness turns. Similarly, in freefall you'll need to learn to compensate for this weird weight distribution (or buy a weight vest that fits you well) . Personally I really hated lugging all that extra weight around, so I've trained to minimise my flying surfaces in all orientations and wear a tight fitting suit. I can now easily stay on level with even the heaviest of jumpers. Good luck buying gear, stay safe and have fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacco 0 #5 December 9, 2013 Hi Dries, One thing you forgot was the weight of your gear which can easily add up to 15 kg. When added into the equation it means an exit weight of 122 + 10 + 33 (body + lead + gear) = 165 pounds. This means that with a 150 sqft canopy you would be at a wingload of 1.1. With your jumpnumbers this is already a relatively big step considering the size of the canopy. A 135 would put you over 1.2 with a very twitchy wing (short suspension lines). Since you are already under a pilot, my advise would be that when you downsize it would be on the same canopy before you try other types. This helps you to be safe and an extra benefit is that the pilot already has a comparatively flat glide. Blues Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uhuru10 0 #6 December 9, 2013 What is your current wingloading? I jump a Pulse-190 at .92 and only have penetration issues in winds >25mph (22knts). By my calculations, you are flying the Pilot-170 at around .95 which should give fair penetration, unless you are facing winds in excess of 25mph. As others have stated, speak with your instructors as they have a better understanding of your abilities. My observations from experience show I can handle higher winds without issue. Anything above 25mph and I don't get in the air in the first place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #7 December 9, 2013 you shouldn't make canopy size decisions at your experience level based on the ability to penetrate winds... reason being if you have to take a down-winder on a hot day you are now totally f$Ck3d and coming in like a meteor (relatively speaking) choose a canopy that you can land safely anywhere and then when the winds get shitty, take a break and jump later NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #8 December 9, 2013 mattjw916 you shouldn't make canopy size decisions at your experience level based on the ability to penetrate winds... reason being if you have to take a down-winder on a hot day you are now totally f$Ck3d and coming in like a meteor (relatively speaking) choose a canopy that you can land safely anywhere and then when the winds get shitty, take a break and jump later That. A smaller canopy will help a little bit with wind penetration but will not make *that* much of a difference. More experience will help you more, even very small wings may back up or at least have no forward ground speed at times, it's how you deal with this that matters. Heck, the one and only backwards landing I ever had was on a 1.75-ish WL canopy (!!). Probably just shouldn't have done that jump I was a lightweight student at 150lbs exit weight (58kg bodyweight) and I spent 50 jumps on the occasional 230 but mostly 288 sqft canopies, so I learned to deal with backing up. Just avoid jumping in winds that'll make you back up on landing, the rest is mostly practice a one or two size canopy will not magically propell you forward quite *that* much. Watch the small canopies and tandems, if they start coming in down straight down, sit it out ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #9 December 10, 2013 dragon2 Heck, the one and only backwards landing I ever had was on a 1.75-ish WL canopy (!!). Probably just shouldn't have done that jump Me three (I wanted to say 'snap' but it sounded wrong.) Adding more wingloading to deal with wind is solving the wrong problem!-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GooniesKid 0 #10 December 11, 2013 this might help too http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Gear_and_Equipment/A_Guide_to_Buying_Your_First_Skydiving_Gear_873.html (hint: try the search feature also,,,i posted the same link to more or less the same question just this week) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dries 0 #11 December 13, 2013 wow, guys, thanks for all the great answers! helped me A LOT. As I will be skydiving for the rest of my life, so I will try to do this more slowly and safe, by trying a 150sq ft canopy. Like you guys said, a 135 will be a step to far for me, maybe it could work, but I'd rather wait some years instead of getting in a wheelchair, and bye bye skydiving career . And there is always an option to swap out the 150 for a 2nd hand 135 after some years of experience! I will use a friend's rig with a 150 and see how it goes, I'll probably like it! Thanks a lot guys! blue ones! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MonsterMo 0 #12 December 13, 2013 Hi Dries, For what it's worth, I'm in a similar situation to yourself. I'm tiny at 5'3" and 55 kilos. I used a Navigator 200 for the majority of my student status, 27 jumps or so and then "downsized" to a Sabre 190. The last jump I did on the Sabre last weekend was in relatively high winds, compounded by the fact that my CCI advised me to pull at 5k instead of 4k as it had been nearly a month since I'd jumped. My canopy ride was interesting to say the least - I was holding into wind the whole duration and flying backwards . Anyway, I landed off but safely. For my first rig, I've been advised to put something together with a 170 main and at least a 160 reserve, although I was told I wouldn't need many (~50 or so) jumps before being able to jump a 150. The only problem is finding used gear that will take those canopies and fit my very petite frame. Might have to go with a new container. Ash :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
