New multimode Cypres!

[gowlerk 1,903]

wolfriverjoe

************

Quote

Name one electrical/digital device you have owned that lasted 20 years.Crazy

Right off the top of my head (actually in my pocket right now) I have a beat up old Texas Instruments calculater that I use nearly every day. About 25 years old, works great. I've seen many 30 year old cars with original radios that work fine. All this is meaningless, as is your particular arguement.

Not to mention your calculator and car radio didn't cost 1300 frickin' bucks.

Then don't jump a fuckin Cypres- I wouldn't jump a Vigil if it were free. To each their own. What exactly is your point?

Someone else brought up the maint and frustrating lifespan, I took the ball and ran with it. It's a legitimate complaint that plenty of people have.

You are aware that the sensitivity and tolerances of an AAD are just a little bit different than a calculator or car radio, right?

I am aware of that. That's why I point out that both the comparison and the argument are meaningless. The level of emotion that goes into beliefs about different AADs is incredible in my view. What I believe is that both these manufacturers are being honest about the products they produce and have designed. One knows that the product they make needs service every 4 years and will have a 12 year life. One knows that the device will last 20 years with an in field battery change after 10 years. No one knows better than the makers, they are both honorable. After that the only question for me is simple math. You can make your own choice, whatever makes you feel "safe".

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

One knows that the product they make needs service every 4 years and will have a 12 year life. One knows that the device will last 20 years with an in field battery change after 10 years.

I think one mfg realizes that it is not wise to expect a pressure sensor and its associated electronics to work well enough (and we need it be work very "well" - very precise/very accurate) for decades without a check.

Every time a unit that is sent in for a normal check, without having shown any problems during self test, and it needs some repair shows that their performance standards are very high. The units of other mfgs can pass a self test, but we do not know how well they will make the fire/no fire decision when the conditions are close to the limit. There is no historical record of how well their units perform after 4 and 8 years in service.

The fact that cypres has a 12 year warranty is worth a lot. Why do the others not match their warranty to what they claim will be the lifetime of the unit?

I think a reminder of the philosophy behind why substantial maintenance is a good idea and what happens during cypres maint testing is appropriate. It is much more than putting it in a chamber and confirming that it works. A self test cannot confirm the accuracy and precision of a sensor, or that a cold solder joint will not function at all when the unit is later at some temp extreme, among other things.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf

http://www.cypres-usa.com/...e_of_reliability.pdf

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ChrisHoward 8]

grue

Because there's no service centre in Australia, we lose our AADs for over a month if we send them out for service, and the costs associated with all of the bullshit make it untenable for someone like me knowing full well there's a competing product that doesn't have the same shortcomings.

I would give no credence to this argument. Every single manufacturer that advertises a zero maintenance unit have subsequently recalled many of those units for maintenance or updates. I have seen tandem rigs grounded for longer than it would take a lifetime of cypres services, not to mention anybody who owned an Argus (I guess they could put there no service savings towards buying a new unit).
I don't particularly mind what people choose to jump. Just saying that historically the no service/longer life/cheaper unit theory has been proving wrong many many times over.

[bob.dino 0]

nigel99

Vigil plays games claiming 20 years, knowing that very few people will use it for that length of time. Airtek plays games by building the fear that TIME and not USE is a major factor in AAD reliability. Both are feeding the masses marketing bullshit.

Nigel: how much analog circuit design experience do you have? How much do you know about the drift in calibration of the sensors in the Crypres and Vigil over time? Can you quote the part number of the barometric sensor used in the Cypres? Can you tell me what guarantees its manufacturer provides Airtec?

If you haven't been professionally involved in the field, you don't know enough to comment. Promise.

I'm a computer engineer, and I've done a little bit of digital circuit design. My thesis was on Digital Signal Processing - directly relevant to this discussion. I know enough to know I don't know shit about what matters in guaranteeing the operation of an AAD.

If you know enough on this subject to be qualified to comment, I'll donate $100 to the APF team fund.

[Skydivesg 6]

sundevil777

Quote

One knows that the product they make needs service every 4 years and will have a 12 year life. One knows that the device will last 20 years with an in field battery change after 10 years.

I think one mfg realizes that it is not wise to expect a pressure sensor and its associated electronics to work well enough (and we need it be work very "well" - very precise/very accurate) for decades without a check.

Every time a unit that is sent in for a normal check, without having shown any problems during self test, and it needs some repair shows that their performance standards are very high. The units of other mfgs can pass a self test, but we do not know how well they will make the fire/no fire decision when the conditions are close to the limit. There is no historical record of how well their units perform after 4 and 8 years in service.

The fact that cypres has a 12 year warranty is worth a lot. Why do the others not match their warranty to what they claim will be the lifetime of the unit?

I think a reminder of the philosophy behind why substantial maintenance is a good idea and what happens during cypres maint testing is appropriate. It is much more than putting it in a chamber and confirming that it works. A self test cannot confirm the accuracy and precision of a sensor, or that a cold solder joint will not function at all when the unit is later at some temp extreme, among other things.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf

http://www.cypres-usa.com/...e_of_reliability.pdf

Just for some clarification. There are many countries that require a four year check on AADs, the US is not one of them.

Vigil does have a maintenance program to meet these requirements. It's just not mandatory in many countries.

Sundevil, this is not directed at you - your statement just happens to be the last one I've seen regarding Vigil maintenance.

I have seen so many posts about ADD maintenance (or lack of), I thought some additional facts might be in order.


The following is from the "Offer of Maintenance" for the Vigil.
**********************************************

Offer for Maintenance on Vigil II Civil

For those countries that require a scheduled maintenance, we offer the following:

Description of a 4 year check-up

1) Check of the original warranty Q.C. Hologram
2) Disassembling VIGIL
3) Control and Test of the Cutter Unit
4) Control and Test of the Control Unit
5) Replacement of the Battery Pack
6) Replacement of the rubber sealing ring
7) Control and Test of the Pulses Plus Element (integrated in point 10)
8) Calibration of the Pressure Sensor in the tolerance of ± 1,5 mbar
9) Upgrade of the mainboard software to the newest version available.
10) Final operational Test (7 jumps simulation in pressure chamber Go & NoGo)
11) Assembling all vigil subparts
12) Check-Up and Test of the complete assembly
13) Analyse report
14) Service card with new silver Hologram(s)

Remark: The Vigil doesn’t need a scheduled maintenance but can be done on request for Vigil II civil-
125,-€ (Basic net price) (= $169.79 USD)
********************************************

Vigil will accept your unit any time you wish to send it in for maintenance - every 4 years - every 2 years or every year if you want.

Not owning a Vigil because you are concerned about the lack of maintenance is not a reason, it's just a ridiculous excuse.

If you have allegiance to some other AAD manufacturer then I respect that, however, when younger, newer jumpers are reading these threads, I believe we owe them all the facts so they can make well informed decisions.

Both Cypres and Vigil are well respected AADs and both have long established maintenance programs.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[nigel99 143]

Skydivesg

***

Quote

One knows that the product they make needs service every 4 years and will have a 12 year life. One knows that the device will last 20 years with an in field battery change after 10 years.

I think one mfg realizes that it is not wise to expect a pressure sensor and its associated electronics to work well enough (and we need it be work very "well" - very precise/very accurate) for decades without a check.

Every time a unit that is sent in for a normal check, without having shown any problems during self test, and it needs some repair shows that their performance standards are very high. The units of other mfgs can pass a self test, but we do not know how well they will make the fire/no fire decision when the conditions are close to the limit. There is no historical record of how well their units perform after 4 and 8 years in service.

The fact that cypres has a 12 year warranty is worth a lot. Why do the others not match their warranty to what they claim will be the lifetime of the unit?

I think a reminder of the philosophy behind why substantial maintenance is a good idea and what happens during cypres maint testing is appropriate. It is much more than putting it in a chamber and confirming that it works. A self test cannot confirm the accuracy and precision of a sensor, or that a cold solder joint will not function at all when the unit is later at some temp extreme, among other things.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf

http://www.cypres-usa.com/...e_of_reliability.pdf

Just for some clarification. There are many countries that require a four year check on AADs, the US is not one of them.

Vigil does have a maintenance program to meet these requirements. It's just not mandatory in many countries.

Sundevil, this is not directed at you - your statement just happens to be the last one I've seen regarding Vigil maintenance.

I have seen so many posts about ADD maintenance (or lack of), I thought some additional facts might be in order.


The following is from the "Offer of Maintenance" for the Vigil.
**********************************************

Offer for Maintenance on Vigil II Civil

For those countries that require a scheduled maintenance, we offer the following:

Description of a 4 year check-up

1) Check of the original warranty Q.C. Hologram
2) Disassembling VIGIL
3) Control and Test of the Cutter Unit
4) Control and Test of the Control Unit
5) Replacement of the Battery Pack
6) Replacement of the rubber sealing ring
7) Control and Test of the Pulses Plus Element (integrated in point 10)
8) Calibration of the Pressure Sensor in the tolerance of ± 1,5 mbar
9) Upgrade of the mainboard software to the newest version available.
10) Final operational Test (7 jumps simulation in pressure chamber Go & NoGo)
11) Assembling all vigil subparts
12) Check-Up and Test of the complete assembly
13) Analyse report
14) Service card with new silver Hologram(s)

Remark: The Vigil doesn’t need a scheduled maintenance but can be done on request for Vigil II civil-
125,-€ (Basic net price) (= $169.79 USD)
********************************************

Vigil will accept your unit any time you wish to send it in for maintenance - every 4 years - every 2 years or every year if you want.

Not owning a Vigil because you are concerned about the lack of maintenance is not a reason, it's just a ridiculous excuse.

If you have allegiance to some other AAD manufacturer then I respect that, however, when younger, newer jumpers are reading these threads, I believe we owe them all the facts so they can make well informed decisions.

Both Cypres and Vigil are well respected AADs and both have long established maintenance programs.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Interesting, learn something new everyday. Nice to know they are open about what they actually do in their service and the pricing is reasonable.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 143]

bob.dino

***
Vigil plays games claiming 20 years, knowing that very few people will use it for that length of time. Airtek plays games by building the fear that TIME and not USE is a major factor in AAD reliability. Both are feeding the masses marketing bullshit.

Nigel: how much analog circuit design experience do you have? How much do you know about the drift in calibration of the sensors in the Crypres and Vigil over time? Can you quote the part number of the barometric sensor used in the Cypres? Can you tell me what guarantees its manufacturer provides Airtec?

If you haven't been professionally involved in the field, you don't know enough to comment. Promise.

I'm a computer engineer, and I've done a little bit of digital circuit design. My thesis was on Digital Signal Processing - directly relevant to this discussion. I know enough to know I don't know shit about what matters in guaranteeing the operation of an AAD.

If you know enough on this subject to be qualified to comment, I'll donate $100 to the APF team fund.



I'm an electronics design engineer, about 20 years experience.

But you're correct AAD are not simple and there are always tradeoffs made. The manufacturers will have weighed up the options and determined what they thought was the best course of action. I'm just a cynic as to what motivates some of their decisions $$$ or engineering excellence.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JasonYergin 0]

I just see this as Cypres trying to meet the competition and where there's competition there are more product options.

Now if those other options (other companies) could step it up a little more too the prices might actually come down. I understand these things are complicated but the prices are beyond ridiculous at this point.

_________________________________

...Don't Get Elimated!!

[grue 1]

ChrisHoward

I would give no credence to this argument. Every single manufacturer that advertises a zero maintenance unit have subsequently recalled many of those units for maintenance or updates. I have seen tandem rigs grounded for longer than it would take a lifetime of cypres services, not to mention anybody who owned an Argus (I guess they could put there no service savings towards buying a new unit).
I don't particularly mind what people choose to jump. Just saying that historically the no service/longer life/cheaper unit theory has been proving wrong many many times over.

Perhaps so, but I'm also the sort of guy who'd put an argus with no battery in his rig if it'd meet the letter of the regulations (which obviously isn't going to pass for a variety of reasons, I'm just using an example). I'd much rather spend my limited skydiving money on skydiving, not equipment I don't want

cavete terrae.

[nigel99 143]

JasonYergin

I just see this as Cypres trying to meet the competition and where there's competition there are more product options.

Now if those other options (other companies) could step it up a little more too the prices might actually come down. I understand these things are complicated but the prices are beyond ridiculous at this point.

Actually for the number of units sold and the investment required to get an AAD properly tested and on the market I am surprised how cheap they are, these aren't $10 Wal-mart DVD players either in quality or quantity sold.

I'm a real critic of the AAD manufacturers and there is alot they could do better across the board - but they are certainly not ripping us off.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[BrianM 1]

ChrisHoward

anybody who owned an Argus (I guess they could put there no service savings towards buying a new unit).

The Argus requires a test from a service centre every four years.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[piisfish 135]

I like the pink button

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[skydiverek 54]

http://cypres.cc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=434&Itemid=189&lang=en

[HUPRA 0]

nigel99

*********Does anyone knows anything about possible longer lifetime and/or less frequent maintenance, with 2014 Cypres?

I think Airtec makes too much money off of that system for them to give it up. They don't seem to care that they're losing customers to Vigils specifically because some of us don't want to deal with that crap.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and figure they've done the math to figure out that they make more money off of those services than they would off of selling units to the people who jump ship just to avoid them.

Do you have any idea how much money Air Tec makes off their maintenance requirements or how many customers they are losing because of it? I doubt it. Name one electrical/digital device you have owned that lasted 20 years.

Have you ever given any thought to the fact that Vigil states the life expectancy of their unit is 20 years but they only offer a 2 year warranty?

Sparky

Actually most electronics designed for high reliability use lasts 20 years - medical, military and industrial stuff. Just Joe average thinks of electronics as their Wal-Mart $30 DVD player and judges by that standard. On top of that while it is 20 years, the average jumper only jumps weekends, so a heavy user is looking at 4 years of 'on time', and the bulk of that is on the packing mat in standby mode.

That's what I don't get about the Airtek 4 year sales pitch, imagine having to send your iPod in for a service every 300 songs!

I can assure you that military electronics of any significance are tested a lot more often than every four years! Even then half of it has less than a 100% reliability rate...

[nigel99 143]

HUPRA

************Does anyone knows anything about possible longer lifetime and/or less frequent maintenance, with 2014 Cypres?

I think Airtec makes too much money off of that system for them to give it up. They don't seem to care that they're losing customers to Vigils specifically because some of us don't want to deal with that crap.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and figure they've done the math to figure out that they make more money off of those services than they would off of selling units to the people who jump ship just to avoid them.

Do you have any idea how much money Air Tec makes off their maintenance requirements or how many customers they are losing because of it? I doubt it. Name one electrical/digital device you have owned that lasted 20 years.

Have you ever given any thought to the fact that Vigil states the life expectancy of their unit is 20 years but they only offer a 2 year warranty?

Sparky

Actually most electronics designed for high reliability use lasts 20 years - medical, military and industrial stuff. Just Joe average thinks of electronics as their Wal-Mart $30 DVD player and judges by that standard. On top of that while it is 20 years, the average jumper only jumps weekends, so a heavy user is looking at 4 years of 'on time', and the bulk of that is on the packing mat in standby mode.

That's what I don't get about the Airtek 4 year sales pitch, imagine having to send your iPod in for a service every 300 songs!

I can assure you that military electronics of any significance are tested a lot more often than every four years! Even then half of it has less than a 100% reliability rate...

No argument there, if you read the thread the context was that electronics doesn't last 20 year's and that isn't true. If you take the average use of an AAD over 4 years it is very light. To be clear NO AAD has 100% reliability rate, of any brand, it is impossible to achieve.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.