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cpoxon

Flight Line check requirements (Was:) Fatality - Bridlington U.K.

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im guessing the jumper was A licence and in charge of turning on his own AAD can this be confirmed please



I wouldn't mind a small amount of clarification on this myself. At my DZ (and how I have always understood it) A-licence jumpers need to have their AAD and top pin checked before emplaning, B and above don't. A quick flick through the Ops manual brings up section 3-2.3 which says the JM is responsible for ensuring all parachutists below B-lic have been checked.

So - what is the actual BPA requirement, do A-lic jumpers need their top pin and AAD visually checked?



Checking the top-pin is not specified by the Ops manual but then neither are other flight line checks such as having your chest strap done up or your three rings assembled correctly, but then the need for helmet, alti and knife is specified in the Ops Manual.

Section 6 (Equipment) Para 5 (Automatic Activation Devices) of the BPA Operations Manual states,

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FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) Parachutists must use equipment fitted with an operational AAD, which must be switched on prior to any descent.



so in order to check an A Certificate parachutist complies with this it must be visually checked according the the Ops Manual.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) Parachutists must use equipment fitted with an operational AAD, which must be switched on prior to any descent.



so in order to check an A Certificate parachutist complies with this it must be visually checked according the the Ops Manual.


This becomes problematic as novices buy gear that has the control head in the back pad. Do flight line instructors actually require people to partially de-kit so as to check their openers? Clearly the jumpmaster did not in this case, but is it in fact a common practice?

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FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) Parachutists must use equipment fitted with an operational AAD, which must be switched on prior to any descent.



so in order to check an A Certificate parachutist complies with this it must be visually checked according the the Ops Manual.


This becomes problematic as novices buy gear that has the control head in the back pad.



Yes, especially in the UK where the Teardrop is a popular container.

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Do flight line instructors



You don't have to be an instructor to carry out a flight line check, just have obtained the JM1 grading (see sub-para 6.1)

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actually require people to partially de-kit so as to check their openers?



Depending on the length of the chest strap, it can be done without having to take the rig of as such.

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Clearly the jumpmaster did not in this case, but is it in fact a common practice?



Difficult to say because I only jump at a few dropzones in the UK, but if I am checking someone who I don't know, I ask them what Certificate they are and check their AAD if they have one and are A. I would say it is one of the lesser known requirements for checking though as it is a more recent addition to the ops manual.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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I ask those with an A-license pull the rig off their shoulders so i can see the aad is on, if i dont see it, i dont sign them off on yhe manifest chit. ive had people moan about it but not complain as such, rules are rules after all, and its my signature on the sheet even if im not the jumpmaster.

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Section 1 : 4.1.4
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The check for all Student and FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) parachutists must include a visual check to ensure that Automatic Activation Devices (AADs), if fitted to the equipment, are switched on.



The way I've normally seen it done with Teardrops etc is that the jumper finds someone from their lift or a mate who is qualified to check them out and shows them the kit before kitting up, then gets that same jumper to check them out once they have the kit on.
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Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

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I am still A-licence after 340 jumps as is my friend i started jumping with who is pushing 500. My group of jumping buddies all check eachother on the flightline and ask the usual "cypres on?" question but never has anybody actually checked my cypres visually. I would hope that a "yes, my cypres is on" is enough. I'm pretty easy going but if someone a lot less exoerienced than me, allbeit B licenced asked me to undo or take my rig off on the flight line after I had told them my cypres was on I could see myself taking exception.

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This is why I prefer the system Weston uses, whereby you sign against yourself to certify that you've been checked. If someone else signs you off, an accident occurs to you and the AAD was found off, there could be implications for the person signing.

AFAIK, only "B" licence holders and above are permitted to turn on their AAD under the BPA rules. Technically, and as Craig pointed out, "A" licence holders cannot just tell you that it's on - the "B" licence holder checking them has to see it.
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BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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I'm pretty easy going but if someone a lot less exoerienced than me, allbeit B licenced asked me to undo or take my rig off on the flight line after I had told them my cypres was on I could see myself taking exception.



Then you have a problem not the other person. I am a B license with less jumps than you, I wouldn't sign you unless I'd seen the cypres. You should hold someone who checks you correctly in high regard, if you rely on people who cut corners......whats next?

B|
With love in Christ

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Its not cutting corners its being realistic. In the busy enviroment of a weekend at the dropzone no way do all the A-licence jumpers have their cypres checked visually and for everyone not just the A's "yes i have turned my cypres on" is as far as it goes.

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Partially because of this incident if I am checking someone that is A-Certificate I don't accept them telling me if their AAD is on. I make them partially de-kit (if need be) and show me. I also won't sign unless they show me that the are fully ready to go. Those are the rules. Sent someone back and wouldn't sign them until they showed me a hook knife on them once. They responded with 'bloody hell'.

In the end its their life and my signature.

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I am still A-licence after 340 jumps as is my friend i started jumping with who is pushing 500. My group of jumping buddies all check eachother on the flightline and ask the usual "cypres on?" question but never has anybody actually checked my cypres visually. I would hope that a "yes, my cypres is on" is enough.



I've discovered tandem instructors on flight line without their AAD switched on, when they thought they were.

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I'm pretty easy going but if someone a lot less exoerienced than me



290 jumps or less is not "a lot" less experienced.

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allbeit B licenced asked me to undo or take my rig off on the flight line after I had told them my cypres was on I could see myself taking exception.



I take exception with people who don't think the rules apply to them. What's the problem with getting your B Certificate? I hope you are not jumping camera with an A Certificate, contrary to Paragraph 6 (Cameras) of Section 6 (Equipment) of the Ops Manual?

But this is all off topic. Perhaps one of the Incidents mods could move it to S&T?
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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Yes, thats right, according to the BPA when I have done 5 more accuracy landings I will be much better qualified to turn my cypres on.



I understand the irony, but that's not really the point. If you don't want to be checked by someone who has a "B" but a lower jump tally than you, then ask the JM - ultimately it is their responsibility to ensure that you have been checked anyway - and that is realistic. Alternatively, just make your life easier and do those accuracy landings... or is your canopy control not up to it?


...but we digress, The rules are there for a reason - you don't have to agree with all of them - and they form the basis for our insurance and our relationship with the CAA. Not adhering to them is serious as it constitutes an act of negligence: and you would be opened up to be sued (or possibly even criminal prosecution) in case of an accident.
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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I'm lost as to what would need moved for the flight line inspections since this is a unique to the UK item. If you want to continue the conversation lets start a whole new thread about it in S&T. Lets keep this thread about this specific incident.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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It's the JM's ass that ends up at the Coroners court not yours, hence it's their call. I'd re-think my attitude if I were you.



As JM responsibilities are often allocated at many dz's by someone shouting, "hey XXXXXX can you JM this one" as the load is walking out, this just about leaves time to sort out the exit order. No way can you check and be held responsible for all A lic jumpers on that load to have had their AAD's visually checked. If that was the case I think there would be a lack of people willing to put themselves forward to JM.

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the idea is the JM is the last person to sign the manifest, confirming that every jumper has been signed for, not that the JM check every jumper, of whatever license, himself. it cant be that much of a last minute thing as the name of the JM has to be printed on the manifest sheet before its even put down for people to sign

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As JM responsibilities are often allocated at many dz's by someone shouting, "hey XXXXXX can you JM this one" as the load is walking out, this just about leaves time to sort out the exit order. No way can you check and be held responsible for all A lic jumpers on that load to have had their AAD's visually checked. If that was the case I think there would be a lack of people willing to put themselves forward to JM.



Well obivously not the case everywhere, but didn't want to stop a discussion on best practise, even though "best practise" will always need adaptation for each dz.

It great to see that people are becoming more aware of the responsiblity the position JM actually involves rather than just something you have to do to get your B licence (which people seem to be in too much of a hurry to do sometimes)


Sky Pikey

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Hi,
unfortunately have to agree with pjc(paul).
For example you can have a jm on a load of tandems,the jm cant gear check them if he is not tandem rated.
The listed jm could be on a back to back ,lands ,jumps on next plane and he is only signing to say skydivers have been checked by someone else not that he has checked them.
We should be more responsible for ourselves,it is us that jump from planes not the jm or person who has signed for us that chucks us out so we should NOT RELY on someones gear check to reassure someone whether it be ourselves or the `authorities that we are doing something safe,cos it certainly is not.
CHECK YOUR OWN GEAR COS ULTIMATELY IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY,as many UK jumpers know when we SELF CHECK when jumping abroad.
Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

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Likewise, agreed. It's your life, your decision to get out and your gear. Your actions (both before and after leaving the plane) are ultimately your doing. More responsibility needed on an individual level. I'm all for more paperwork and pen pushing if it achieves lower insurance premiums, but i think it might actually increase complacency to an extent. Kind of absolving yourself of responsibility by getting checked...

It's not to say we shouldn't check people, i've caught two chest straps in as many years. I just don't think it should be compulsary and i sure as hell don't want to be signing for anyone! What's to stop them faffing their gear up the moment you walk away, for whatever reason? Your name is still on the scrap of paper...

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

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